Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

MW article about the Watts Bros floating chuck

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Sweet -- thanks for that Peter!

    So my guess about the third bearing being a drawn-cup radial thrust bearing is correct.

    By the way Peter, based on your posts on PM, I'm guessing you're one of the owners, or at least an employee of Slater? If so, do you know if I can get a copy of the 7609 handbook?

    Thanks!

    Robert
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by lazlo
      Hi Simon,

      Sorry I haven't had a chance to reply to your email about your (excellent) SolidWords design -- between the newborn and 10 days at Disney World, my schedule has been crazy...
      No problem! lives are busy things! thanks for the pics they help a ton, and I'm still green with envy! those things never come up cheap on ebay over here!!

      peter that drawings an excellent addition to the thread and helps alot with my own personal project, thankyou!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by DR
        The good news is you can make the broaches for the Slater (provided you have a surface or T&C grinder with an indexing head).

        The Slater can run in a lathe or mill. The Watts probably only in mill or dp because of need for stationary template.
        I've used them in the lathe. I had to make adapters to hold the guides and they worked fine, even in 304ss.

        Andy Pullen
        Clausing 10x24, Sheldon 12" shaper, Clausing 8520 mill, Diacro 24" shear, Reed Prentice 14" x 34"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lazlo
          "With the cutting edge in a flat plane, however, the drill is allowed to wander in whatever direction the cutting forces dictate. It is here that the brittle-hard square jig, when fastened to the workpiece, is used to confine the drill's motions to a wobbling one, forcing it to slide along the square's sides as dictated by the jig.
          It would perhaps be more accurate to say that the watts drill holder allows a number of sizes, and so the guide constrains the movement to a certain size.

          There isn't a determined path for a Watts drill (OR a reuleaux triangle, for that matter) when rotated. BUT, examination of the actual cutter path as shown by the cutting marks indicates that the path taken by the cutter is not a random bouncing, as some of Weyger's descriptions indicate (I have several of his books) but a repeating set of sweeps. The cutter rotates around each "corner" in turn.

          It would be possible to move the drill in the specific pattern to generate a square. However, in that case the holder would be useful for ONLY one shape and one size. You would either have to put in a new cam, or get a different holder to make a different size hole.

          With the full floating holder and guides, a single holder (the expensive part) serves for ANY hole, of ANY number of sides, within the normal range of size and polygonal number.

          There is what I believe is a serious error in the article, however. The author asserts that a pilot hole is not required.

          If you look at the end of the drill, however, you will see that there is a non-cutting area in the middle, similar to a non-centercutting end mill. When that hits bottom, drilling will cease, so a center hole seems to be absolutely required.







          Last edited by J Tiers; 03-25-2008, 09:13 PM.
          1601

          Keep eye on ball.
          Hashim Khan

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by J Tiers
            examination of the actual cutter path as shown by the cutting marks indicates that the path taken by the cutter is not a random bouncing, as some of Weyger's descriptions indicate (I have several of his books) but a repeating set of sweeps. The cutter rotates around each "corner" in turn.
            I'm not seeing that on my Watts drill Jerry. I drilled a pilot hole, and it looks like one of the cutter edges lodges in some random point in the pilot hole, the Oldham coupler rotates around that pivot point until another edge lodges, and so on, and on.

            I'll slow it down as much as I can and post a video.
            "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

            Comment


            • #21
              Just look at the hole and the pattern in the picture.

              You can clearly see that the cutter rotates until it catches on a corner, then it rotates AROUND that corner until that hits a corner, and from there it "walks" around the hole in a very regular fashion.

              If you are NOT seeing that, the most logical answer is that your guide is NOT the one for that size drill.

              If you have the right guide and drill combination, it should be essentially IMPOSSIBLE for it to randomly bounce around.

              The guide and drill have co-ordinated dimensions.
              1601

              Keep eye on ball.
              Hashim Khan

              Comment


              • #22
                You don't need to shout Jerry...

                Originally posted by J Tiers
                You can clearly see that the cutter rotates until it catches on a corner, then it rotates AROUND that corner until that hits a corner, and from there it "walks" around the hole in a very regular fashion.
                I think it's our respective definitions of "random." That's almost exactly my description, and Weyger's as well:

                Originally posted by Lazlo
                It looks like one of the cutter edges lodges in some random point in the pilot hole, the Oldham coupler rotates around that pivot point until another edge lodges, and so on, and on.
                The place the first edge catches is completely random, based on the pilot hole you've drilled, and how the Oldham coupler happens to be oriented.

                As the Watts drill embeds in the first edge, pivots around that point, and the edge edge lodge, the path is still clockwise, but it changes according to the remaining shape of the pilot hole.

                When the hole is finally cut, and the Watts drill is banging around on the outside of the frame, then there's no more randomness to affect the path of the Oldham coupler.
                "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                Comment


                • #23
                  The definition of "is" in a new form? Maybe.

                  But if you have in front of you a watts drill and a guide, and you fit them together, you see that a description like that is pretty rough.

                  The side of the drill triangle is *exactly* the same as the side of the square guide, in the case of the square drill. There isn't very much room for any hypothetical random bouncing.

                  I will allow that the start may be in a random position, particularly if used on a drill press, vertically. If started turning before contacting the work though, I would expect the pattern to already be established within one turn even with no drill to work contact. It is hard to even spin the drill in the guide without taking the right path.

                  Within one turn, the regular pattern should be established, since the drill virtually cannot turn within the guide unless it follows the reuleaux type path, entering each corner in turn, and pivoting around it until the following side is hit, and repeating right round the square.

                  In a too-large guide, there will be any amount of random bouncing. Probably the work will "take charge" and start refusing entry to the drill over some part of the exposed area.

                  That would be because the drill has cutting ability only on the end. It can't really cut on the edges, which are blunt.

                  So if it is not FORCED to follow a given path, any area which is missed will start to guide the drill if the drill has cut down and left a higher spot somewhere on teh bottom of the hole. it will start to bounce off the "curb" that is left, and the hole would be distorted.

                  With the square drill, at least, that is impossible due to the drill being forced to take a given path around the square. I don't have a hex drill, or 5 sided, so I cannot comment on that. i would assume a similar size relation of drill and guide again forces a certain path..
                  Last edited by J Tiers; 03-25-2008, 10:03 PM.
                  1601

                  Keep eye on ball.
                  Hashim Khan

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    re: Slater Handbook

                    Originally posted by lazlo
                    ...get a copy of the 7609 handbook?
                    lazlo - Sure, just send me a message with your address. Actually, the posted image is the only schematic in the handbook, and most of the other info is available at http://www.slatertools.com/techassist.htm

                    re: Watts discussion
                    Did anyone else notice the bottom of the hole using the Watts drills looks a bit like a Phillips head hole? I wonder if it could be modified for that somehow.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The Watts drill WILL drill without a pilot hole in soft materials. I've done it in brass and aluminum. No big deal. Harder materials work better with a pilot hole.

                      The Watts drill will not cut perfectly square corners. I've used them for squares, pentagons and hexes. You need the appropriate drill and guide for each hole size you want. I personally wouldn't try to use it without the guide due to the expense of the bits. They've been around for 100 years and work well for what they do. Cost per hole is reasonable if you have the need.

                      Andy Pullen
                      Clausing 10x24, Sheldon 12" shaper, Clausing 8520 mill, Diacro 24" shear, Reed Prentice 14" x 34"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Odd, mine have a FLAT part at the end, with a center hole in it. That is maybe 30% of the "diameter" of the drill.

                        I am puzzled as to how that would be able to drill effectively, since the guide will not allow it to move far enough to get a real cutting edge in the area of the hole which is generally under that flat part.

                        I can only assume that it can pound and push away softer material enough to be cut, if you lay on it with enough pressure.

                        I won't be trying that any time soon.

                        The drill stops when it hits the end of the hole. The picture I posted above shows the remains of the pilot hole, and at that point the drill was NOT making any progress at all. In fact it had started to track wrong because it was just rubbing on the bottom of the hole.
                        1601

                        Keep eye on ball.
                        Hashim Khan

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The watts brochure, which I recently acquired a PDF of, says that for soft materials you CAN avoid a pilot hole, but that it is required for harder materials.

                          They mention copper and wood as materials which don't need a pilot. Also brass, but there are hard brasses, and I don't know if it would be "universal" for all brass.
                          1601

                          Keep eye on ball.
                          Hashim Khan

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Watts Bros. manual

                            The Watts Drill manual & prices are now available online. They can be accessed thru the metalworking.com website. They are in the dropbox files section near the bottom,(files are alphabetical). "Make Swarf & Prosper" John

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Pictures, good - Movie even better.

                              A couple of videos that might be of interest to some.
                              Watts Brothers square hole video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjckF0-VeGI
                              And another video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5AzbDJ7KYI&NR=1&feature=endscreen
                              Last edited by Steve Stube; 03-23-2013, 12:16 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X