4 dollar gas and its effects on metalworking at home

[oldtiffie]

Paradise lost

It seems a case of "Paradise Lost" - does it not?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost

Seems to me more of a "Fool's Paradise" lost - which may be no bad thing.

http://www.tfd.com/fool's+paradise
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...l%27s+paradise
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/138800.html

There seems to be a few "Lotus Eaters" here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotophagi
who think that the current - or more particularly times until August 2007 are/were "normal" when they were and are anything but. It is just a BIG bubble that is going to deflate - as it must - severely back to what some of the older of us and the parents of others would have regarded as "normal".

I am amazed that it had got this far without "busting".

I'd be surprised if the so-called high gas prices were the biggest worry we may have.

There are going to be some "smarties" and entrepreneurs who will make a "killing" out of the "opportunities" that will present themselves.

It may be a long rough ride - "buckle up".

[dp]

Tiffie - there is an entire generation that has grown up, are now in the workplace and who have never known a down economy. The dot com implosion was nothing compared to the good old days of "Wip Inflation Now" and price/wage freezes. It will be interesting after the fall when the government teat dries up.

[chief]

Just a friendly reminder,

Voting for democrats isn't going to bring down the prices either, vote conservative not republican.

[dpasek]

I went to work in 1972 at $1.05 a hour. Worked a lot harder than any job since. I could buy gasoline at $0.32 a gallon.. that works out to about 3 gallons a hours labor..

Just for perspective:
$0.32 in 1972 dollars is equivalent to $1.61 in 2008 dollars based on US CPI.

[oldtiffie]

Weathering the storm

We are in a global economy now - have been for a while actually - over which we have little or no control - like it or not.

Economy? "Its the money - stupid" - sound familiar? It should.

Multi-national corporations are fairly well insulated from and largely dismissive of Governments who in turn need the money and are largely dismissive of their constituents.

Its also "free enterprise", "market forces" and national Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

Government has little control - even "no-bodies"/"punters" like us can order stuff internationally and pay by universally accepted credit cards or PayPal and the like.

The weakest national economies are or will be those with the weakest "balance sheets" and most exposure to debt and risk - just as it is with and between families and large Super-markets and Malls versus the local "convenience store". Wall Street and its clones have no national loyalty yet they are the cause of most of the problem and yet are the first (and only?) one to be "bailed out" by Government and Federal Reserves in a lot of countries.

I would hazard a guess that this "gas price problem" is not only a long way down on the national agendas but is probably not on it and will stay off it until the empty platitudes before elections but which may well become "non-core" or "non-operative" after the elections (US and other countries).

I was taught never to get into debt - at all. Which I have done unless it was for a business loan - a years wages then but which I busted a gut to pay back in under 6 months. The house was 2 years wages and we paid it out in 4 years. We have never had a new car or a new house and never had a new Lounge Suite until we had been married 30 years.

Friends of ours who were Construction workers who specialised in large Mill and Refinery construction and "shut-down maintenance" work taught us to always have at least 6 months expenditure in hand an unencumbered. We not only did it and still do but we "racked it up" to 12 months most times. It has seen us through bad times on several occasions.

We (wife and I) are in good shape to "weather the storm".

A gallon of gas here is about $US8.00 per gallon. If it went up 10% the increase would be about $US0.80 per gallon or $US80.00 per 100 gallons or at say 25 miles per gallon, $US80.00 per 1,000 miles or an extra $US0.08 (8 cents) cents per mile.

If the US price were to double it would only be at parity with a lot of the rest of the world as it is now and still a whole lot less than a lot of other countries - and that is only pre-supposing that the price of in those other countries remained static - which it won't.

Some countries tax gas at very high rates, not just for revenue but to discourage use of gas. Cars are similarly taxed. In some countries you need a very expensive licence to even get on a buyer's list let alone get the car!!.

We in OZ have "pigged out" on credit and gas as much as many others and are paying or about the pay the price and the "Piper".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_piper

[Norman Atkinson]

Gas Prices and that

OT! I couldn't agree more with your comments. You and I may be miles apart but our ideologies are so similar.
You quoted Milton and I will quoted Rudyard Kipling in 'If'

'Nor lose the common touch' but they should read for themselves.

Again, the words of Saint Augustin echo-- To toil and not to seek for rest, to labour and not ask for any reward.

I was watching the other night in the light of flickering 33 candles lighting up the three crosses. Faith, Hope and Charity.
I hope that I haven;t been too disappointing

God Bless

Norman

[Swarf&Sparks]

Am I the only one that remembers the "oil crisis" of the 70's?

[oldtiffie]

Oink

Tiffie - there is an entire generation that has grown up, are now in the workplace and who have never known a down economy. The dot com implosion was nothing compared to the good old days of "Wip Inflation Now" and price/wage freezes. It will be interesting after the fall when the government teat dries up.

Thanks Dennis.

You've got it right.

No more "oinking" and "pigging-out" "on the teat".

'ooray!!!

Notice which end is exposed with all the oinkers and piggers-out?

The price and wages freeze - if ever happens - will not be helped if there is a "freeze" or "control" of the availability of gas without any real control on price.

I am more interested to see what happens when the banks and financial institutions really do "come clean" as regards losses and risk.

I will be interested to see what credit is available and on what terms and from which sources - and at what cost.

I will be interested to see how things pan out when (if?) the "Sub-prime" effort and the "leveraging" house of cards and re-setting of interest rates play themselves out.

I will be very interested to see who sold what to what "Sovereign Fund" and the like and who then has effective control and beneficial owner-ship and how that control is exercised.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_wealth_fund
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...ulltext=Search

Gas prices may well be only a small matter in the larger scheme of things.

We live in interesting times.

[Norman Atkinson]

Gas and Gaiters

OT!

Have a look at the Bank of Scotland 'fiasco' of yesterday. I was being cheeky to our John but was watching the Finance side of things.
So this is Northern Rock 2.
I saw a rise of 10% coming back in from France at Christmas and another rise only days ago.
Whilst the Bank Rate may have fallen ie for lenders the mortgage rate and credit card rates have gone up. Assuming that one can can get credit.

I did economics not engineering. I might have left school atr 14 but there is life after one puts away 'one's satchel and shining morning face'

Are banks going back to the old 'Lending money only to those WITH money?'

( Jack in the lifeboat adage applies)

Cheers

N

[chief]

You remember the election in 2006? year-and-a-half ago, consumer confidence was a two-and-a-half year high. Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon. The unemployment rate was four-and-a-half percent. Since voting in a Democrat-controlled Congress in 2006 we have seen consumer confidence plummet, the cost of regular gasoline soar to near $3.50 a gallon, unemployment's up to 5%. American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate because of stock and mutual fund losses, and Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion. One percent of American homes are in foreclosure. America wanted change in 2006, and they got it.

[oldtiffie]

Watch the shockers

Am I the only one that remembers the "oil crisis" of the 70's?

Not quite Lin - even though it seems so.

Everything has a price but it depends on what the price is.

Lottsa variations and permutations there.

Its not only the "bowser price" but the compounding of costs/prices due to the "knock-on" and multiplier effects.

Not to mention all the "bottom feeders" and "main-chancers".

Gas, like any commodity will go up to meet the price that the consumer can pay - note that I did not say "is prepared to pay".

Oil, and its derivatives are strategic items of strategic use and importance to those who will use it to advantage.

The chronic shortage of basis food-stuffs (grains) for the production of motor fuels (ethanol) won't help much in this situation either.

Gas prices are only part of the problem for the Home Shop as metals just have to keeping rising due to the enormous price increases in raw materials - ores and coal mainly. These are also trade-able commodities.

The next "shock" may well be "oil" but will it combine with others?

[Norman Atkinson]

Prices

After my little moan, my wife returned to give her version of events.
you will realise that we separated from UK events for a while and therefore the rise is noticeable.

Bread has gone up here in the UK by more than 10%.
My pension went up by 2.5% or will this month. However, this will be taxed!

Come back 'Victor Meldrew and One Foot in the Grave'- all is forgiven!

Norm.

[oil mac]

The engineering base & other skilled and dedicated industrial types, kept the money circulating in the western countries of Europe & The American continent particularly well for many generations , And were of a mindset where advancement was in their psyche, found themselves suddenly being marginalised, put down, and wiped out , by right wing " so called right and left of centre politicians" All the same rotten branch of society in my book, from parliament down to local government level nowadays Who both in Europe and the American sub continent slavishly followed the teachings of people like Milton Friedman___ REsult almost total dependancy on China, The Pacific rim and a financial sector in London who couldnt care less for the welfare of the average citizen CAN SOMEONE, TELL ME, WHERE DO WE GO AS THE LIGHTS GO OUT,OR THE RED ARMY INVADES AND TREATS US WITH THE SAME CONTEMPT, AS THE POOR FOLK IN TIBET ? -- Almost happened to the U.K. in 1939-45 But we had Winston Churchill a patriot then ,who is our leader now?

[wierdscience]

who is our leader now?

We don't have leaders,we have followers,they follow the whims of the people and the press and refuse to lead.We have elected exactly who we asked for it is our fault.

We won't have a leader either until one of the followers sprouts some berries and says to hell with the opinion polls.

We here in the states have had the media pick our possible canidates for us I am sad to say.For the Dems it's narrowed down between a pathological liar and a metrosexual empty husk and on the Republican side we're stuck with a RINO.

[Evan]

Since voting in a Democrat-controlled Congress in 2006 we have seen consumer confidence plummet, the cost of regular gasoline soar to near $3.50 a gallon, unemployment's up to 5%. American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate because of stock and mutual fund losses, and Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion. One percent of American homes are in foreclosure. America wanted change in 2006, and they got it.

You don't think it has anything to do with "defence" spending do you? The fact that two things occur together does not mean they are related. In fact, correlation can never be used to prove causation. It requires direct evidence.

Having said that, I always vote Federal Conservative. In this country now that puts me slightly to the right of Bush but without the religious agenda.