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  • pcarpenter
    replied
    Gee Robert...I almost feel "wierded out" at the thought of being included with guys like McGyver or Stephen Thomas. I am really a rank amateur and I think the only scraping work I have shown here has been my straightedge. I feel even more amateurish as Forrest is absolutely right...Scraping, as a trade, is something that one would spend many years experience mastering. If I rescrape every way surface on every machine I own, I still won't have the experience that a master scraper hand would have in just a few years as an apprentice.

    For me (and I think for most home shop types) there is a need to sort of escalate the learning curve so that you can get on with the work involved. As Forrest points out, this cannot exclude the critical details in the name of being in a hurry or you will have beautifully scraped junk. It does take planning, attention to detail and a willingness to simultaneously think in terms of both planar relationships and the means to get there as you also think about individual surfaces.

    On the other hand, I think scraping is not out of the reach of many HSM's as might have been implied, since for most it won't mean rescraping a whole machine...perhaps just work on smaller fixtures like McGyver's "univise" which is a thing of beauty. Its a way for a guy who maybe doesn't own a surface grinder to make some really precise tools like the aforementioned Univise copy. The smaller your work, the smaller your shop made straightedges need to be. Small enough...and you can rub everything to a surface plate, which you can just buy fairly inexpensively. Small items also mean less tedium as the time between successive scraping passes is reduced. Machine way straightedges can be machined to shape and then scraped from a stick of continuous cast iron (DuraBar etc). Someof the best scrapers I have tried are hand made from a piece of steel, a file handle, and a $2 carbide rectangle. I bought two of the commercial ones I have from our own George Matov at a very kind price.

    Still, tying this back to the original topic of the Machine Tool Reconditioning book, I would have to say that short of seeing the scraping stroke and process done by a real person, it might be very hard to get started. MTR is just a (very thorough) reference book and not a "how to" guide. I was very fortunate to have a guy teach me, but as Forrest pointed out, the fact that there are now a few video sources out there makes it possible for many here to try scraping if it sounds useful to them.

    Paul

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by lazlo
    Funny you should mention that Charles -- when I contacted Mike last Summer about buying his scraping video and book, he replied that "Contrary to popular belief, the Bridgeport book is almost done."

    I didn't even mention the Bridgeport rebuilding book, so I gather that's a sore point for him

    Fair to say that I bought my copy of Morgan's scraping book a year or so ago. I just filled in the online form, paid by card and it arrived in the UK about 10 days later. Personally I'm in no doubt that he'll do it - I'm just impatient. I'd also like a Biax scraper but that'll have to wait aswell!

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  • ERBenoit
    replied
    Originally posted by hornluv
    My wonderful wife pointed out a copy to me at a flea market for a mere $2.00.
    Just goes to show that some people have no idea what they have.

    As others here mentioned a used book will fetch almost as much as a new one.

    I aquired a copy a few years ago at what I thought was a deal at $2.00, well I had to give the seller $2.00 twenty five times.
    Last edited by ERBenoit; 05-16-2008, 10:29 AM.

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  • hornluv
    replied
    Originally posted by lazlo
    I think there was only one edition of Machine Tool Reconditioning. There have been reprints, but I think the text is the same.
    Well then, two bucks is sounding better all the time!

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  • lazlo
    replied
    Originally posted by hornluv
    It's an older edition, but still, great deal.
    I think there was only one edition of Machine Tool Reconditioning. There have been reprints, but I think the text is the same.

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  • hornluv
    replied
    My wonderful wife pointed out a copy to me at a flea market for a mere $2.00. That is, by far the best machining-related score I've ever found. It's an older edition, but still, great deal.

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  • lazlo
    replied
    Originally posted by Charles Ping
    I'd just like Michael Morgan to finish the Bridgeport book.
    A whole machine tutorial would be very useful.
    Funny you should mention that Charles -- when I contacted Mike last Summer about buying his scraping video and book, he replied that "Contrary to popular belief, the Bridgeport book is almost done."

    I didn't even mention the Bridgeport rebuilding book, so I gather that's a sore point for him

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  • lazlo
    replied
    Originally posted by oldtiffie
    I agree with you 100% as that bad attitude is based on prejudice and bull-****!! Just refer anyone with that attitude to this site/forum as it will damn soon set them right - your work and that of Lane and Marv Klotz are good for starters - and there are plenty of others.
    Tiffie, I'm not sure what you're going on about, since this thread is about Connelly's Machine Tool Reconditioning JTiers took exception when you implied that Connelly's scraping techniques aren't necessary for the home-shop machinist. I agree -- look at the fine scraping examples by McGyver, Paul Carpenter, and Stephen Thomas.

    But now you're going on about bad attitudes, which we surely have enough of here lately, but I don't see how that relates to Machine Tool Reconditioning.

    In any event, I don't know if you realize this, but Lane is a professional machinist, and Marv is not -- he's a retired physicist (i.e., a true hobbyist). They couldn't be from more different backgrounds

    They're both incredible craftsmen though...
    Last edited by lazlo; 05-16-2008, 09:51 AM.

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  • oldtiffie
    replied
    A great start ot my day!!

    Originally posted by J Tiers
    Tiffie, you were not really the target......... You made a point of mentioning that scraping etc has its place, and described that place. And I would never suppose you advocate the "rough sand the ways" re-build.

    You really just reminded me of the folks who DO trot out the "Plain man" stuff..... They also tend to be against way oil, levels, and maybe any measuring past spring calipers and scales...........

    I've never figured out why a "hobbyist" should do bad work..... There seems to be an inherent prejudice......

    To a newspaper, a machinist at work is a professional doing fine commercial work, but what the same man using identical machines in his personal shop makes is described as "home-made". I can't quite figure that out.....

    perhaps "home-made" to me means crude and done with unsuitable materials...... popsicle sticks and string..... that sort of thing.
    Thanks JT.

    That post of yours started my day off just right - with a wry smile and perhaps seeing myself in a different light in some respects.
    You made a point of mentioning that scraping etc has its place, and described that place. And I would never suppose you advocate the "rough sand the ways" re-build.
    Yes, scraping does have its place - always has and always will. I do use it on occasion. I still have my scraping set from when I was an Apprentice - flat, bearing and 3-point/triangular. I keep them honed to a very fine edge and all get used here. As example, on the "master squares" that I made for my refinishing of my angle-plate recent post, I used both my bearing and 3-point scrapers to put the internal bevel on the ends - beats the hell out of re-setting a lathe tool to do it and I can put a bevel or radius on at will - very handy.

    You really just reminded me of the folks who DO trot out the "Plain man" stuff..... They also tend to be against way oil, levels, and maybe any measuring past spring calipers and scales...........
    Right on again.

    I do tend to use traditional tools on occasion as they definitely have their place here - when needed. I have a good range of modern tools as well. I use a lanolin-based oil for preservation of my machine and tool surfaces. It is excellent, leaves a stiff "waxy" surface and is easily cleaned off just by hand spraying a new coat which melts/dissolves/softens (??) the first then both are wiped off easily with an old rag (by an old rag?? - me?? - 'fraid so). I use a light machine oil on my ways as I only light machining. "3-in-1" oil gets used sometimes and light machine oil otherwise. I clean off the preservative and re-oil before use and clean up, and re-preserve when finished.

    I actually prefer to use spring calipers for internal measurements as I can keep to "1/2 a thou" or better quite easily. It is an art but very useful. I transfer the measurement via caliper to my micrometer or digital caliper and get very good results. It is surprising just how well it goes if I say pre-set my digital caliper and lock it and then work between it and my spring calipers. I have a full set of very good 0 - 150mm (0 - 6") outside micrometers but don't have and so far haven't needed a set of inside micrometers.

    I have a 0 - 150mm set of very good depth micrometers but I quite like the better "feel" I get with using this item CDCO (USA) attached to my digital caliper:
    http://www.cdcotools.com/item.php?itemid=282
    The metric depth micrometer has a finer thread than its "inch" equivalent and it has a domed instead of flat end and id much harder to "feel" than the "inch" type with a flat end. (One for the older "inch" tools!!).

    I am not against using levels at all. I do have a range of levels and I start off with the "roughest/coarsest" and work my way up to the level with the required degree of accuracy for the job at hand. I am 100% in favour of using a level to set a lathe/machine so that all ways etc. are co-planar -as well as other methods mentioened in previous posts. But once "set" I am not obesessed with having the machine "level" as long as it retains its co-planar settings/repationships. I have to admit that there have been (too?) many times that I've wished that the damn machine was dead level!! (Penance/retribution??).

    I've never figured out why a "hobbyist" should do bad work..... There seems to be an inherent prejudice......
    I agree with you 100% as that bad attitude is based on prejudice and bull-****!! Just refer anyone with that attitude to this site/forum as it will damn soon set them right - your work and that of Lane and Marv Klotz are good for starters - and there are plenty of others.

    To a newspaper, a machinist at work is a professional doing fine commercial work, but what the same man using identical machines in his personal shop makes is described as "home-made". I can't quite figure that out.....
    Again - 100%

    If you were to say have it revised to be machinists doing professional/"quality" work either or both in a home/hobby or commercial shops .................... it would be better.

    Not all machinists who work in commercial shops are 100% competent - but I'd guess that 90% are. Some are not much better than process workers. That they got a job in a commercial shop does not imbue them with competence.

    Only sheer skill and experience - as well as the right frame of mind or "attitude" can or will do that. There are any amount of competent machinist who meet those criteria on this forum - including those who "picked it as as they went along"!!!

    At least on this forum people ask, discuss, assist and advise where-as some so-called "Professional" machinists are "up themselves" and regard "that sort of sh$t" as beneath them because "they (just) know it" (all?).

    The people on this forum and many of those who are sudents or Teachers in the Vocational Educational system are good examples of the points I was making regard "good" attitude in my previous paragraphs.

    perhaps "home-made" to me means crude and done with unsuitable materials...... popsicle sticks and string..... that sort of thing
    Again - agreed 100%!!

    That implies "cottage industry".

    I will wear that badge with pride any time!!!

    There is heaps of excellent work carried out in "home-based" shops!! Many businesses are attached to the house or in a shed or shop of varying size on this forum and there is some fabulous work comes out of them. Its even better as many achieve extraordinary results with limited resources and sheer grit, determination, versatility, adaptability and ingenuity. They are versatile and "nimble" without the "baggage" (and bureaucracy/"management") of the bigger "commercial" shops.

    And they help each other!!!

    Small shops and home shops are the nursery of the economy and the technological edge that we need. The level of skills and dedication is something that "big" shops cannot buy but can only hire.

    But in all fairness there are some extraordinary people achieving at extraordinary levels in both small and large "developmental" environments.

    Well, that's it Jerry - thanks heaps - as I said - you "sparked" and "made" my day.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I'd just like Michael Morgan to finish the Bridgeport book.
    A whole machine tutorial would be very useful.

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  • jimmstruk
    replied
    My thoughts on Connelys book, which I read some time back, concern the straight edges and different guages neccessary to check the progress of the work as scraping is being done. Very recently there was a picture on here of some dovetail guages. These straight edges and other tools could be quite heavy and hard to handle for the hobby shop. And expensive for a small job. JIM

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  • lazlo
    replied
    Originally posted by Charles Ping
    I'm in a very small minority but I found the book hard work and IMHO it didn't give enough practical guidance for an amateur.
    It's not you Charles. MTR is painful to read and follow. It was Connelly's personal rebuilding notes that he published as a book, which is hard for someone else to follow.

    Personally I preferred the Michael Morgan book (with all the usual discliamers - read the archive before ordering)
    I agree -- Mike's book is really well written, and very easy to follow. It's got great pictures and diagrams on how to sharpen and hone the scraper, how to hold it, and the actual scraping technique, flaking, ... It also has an excellent chapter on machine tool alignment.

    You can buy the Mike Morgan book and video from any DAPRA distributor. I bought mine from E.S. Dyjak.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Tiffie, you were not really the target......... You made a point of mentioning that scraping etc has its place, and described that place. And I would never suppose you advocate the "rough sand the ways" re-build.

    You really just reminded me of the folks who DO trot out the "Plain man" stuff..... They also tend to be against way oil, levels, and maybe any measuring past spring calipers and scales...........

    I've never figured out why a "hobbyist" should do bad work..... There seems to be an inherent prejudice......

    To a newspaper, a machinist at work is a professional doing fine commercial work, but what the same man using identical machines in his personal shop makes is described as "home-made". I can't quite figure that out.....

    perhaps "home-made" to me means crude and done with unsuitable materials...... popsicle sticks and string..... that sort of thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Forrest Addy
    replied
    You're probably right Charles. The Connelly book is a reference. It's not a self-teaching text designed for the beginner. Skilled Craftsmen used it to refresh their memories.

    One could use its initial chapters to build skill by reading trying and re-reading the skills alluded to but it would be a hard slog. A few moments with a mentor now and then during this process could clarify issues as they evolved and save much straying fromt the path and re-inventing the wheel.

    The basic tools and their use is bone simple. Their application in re-conditioning a machine tool to gactory origianl condition, operability, and accuracy is roughly equivalent to building a complete wooden boat from lofted lines or a 2 passenger home built airplane.

    It must be kept in mind at all times that re-consitioning a machine tool while restoring its linearity, alignments etc is a problem in many simultaneous unknowns. I teach my students the important of planning the owrk in detail early in the game. A written list of steps to be taken makes progress deliberate and avoids the mistakes bourne out of impulsiveness.

    Scraping in a machine tool is not impossible, in fact the individual steps are quite simple. But every one of the hundreds of steps need to be taken in order and that - for a species of corner-cutters like humans - is the rock on which the wave of orderly progress breaks.

    If one wished to learn scraping the several self teaching scraping texts like Michael Mogan's or Rich King's DVD are good places to start. Another is to scrounge up a mentor near you who once earned his living with a scraper. If you're really shot with luck maybe your local Voc-Tech school has the expertise to pass on to you. Or you could take a course on the topic such as the one Richard King advertizes on eBay or the one I teach in the home town of a volunteer organizer.
    Last edited by Forrest Addy; 05-14-2008, 04:06 AM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I'm in a very small minority but I found the book hard work and IMHO it didn't give enough practical guidance for an amateur. But the again it wasn't written for someone like me.
    Personally I preferred the Michael Morgan book (with all the usual discliamers - read the archive before ordering)

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