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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by ERBenoit
    What was the name of that department again? I missed it.
    XXXXXXXX (now deleted to protect the guilty), and probably the local volunteer dept, since it was about a mile outside of the actual town. It was several years ago, like 10 or so.

    Don't get me wrong...... A fire is a mess, and anyone who will agree to come and put them out, and try to save people and property has my thanks, and more.

    To do the putting out makes the mess worse, but it is way better than the alternative.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 05-18-2008, 10:45 PM.

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  • Dawai
    replied
    Beings how this has became a pissing contest, I got up at 5am and let some off, then again at 8am..

    Get over it or take it to PM please.. relieve the BS..

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  • Swarf&Sparks
    replied
    "There were about 3 dozen drums total, most containing Ethanol:"

    I weep

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  • tdmidget
    replied
    Right on Joel. And Carl the fire dept's authority is derived from the police powers of the goverment. Thus they are permitted to enter, forcibly if necessary, and take whatever action is needed to protect lives and property. I used to be a field instructor for the Georgia Fire Academy and we would go to rural departments and teach them to handle flammable liquids including large quanties in a pit with water. Not every department can afford foam and the equipment to apply it. They do have water and we taught them how to use it.

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  • Joel
    replied
    Originally posted by Carld
    Well, I guess I got a little carried away and ranted on some burning issues of mine. No, you can't slam everyone into the same pot so for that I'm sorry.
    Thanks, I and others appreciate it.


    We have a volunteer fire dept here supported by county taxes. They SEEM to be well trained but I have not followed them to fires to see. No one here to my knowledge is complaining.
    If no one is complaining, they must be doing a LOT right. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Better yet, give them a hand, a donation, a pat on the back, go to a council meeting and show some support, help them fix or improve something. I seriously doubt the county taxes go as far as they need to go.


    Several places we have lived the fire dept was not good and some would not call them for that reason. If you were not a paid member they may come to the fire and keep it from spreading outside the building but not put the fire out.
    I have a serious moral problem with systems like that. In a way, I can kind of understand because it is a constant struggle to get enough money to keep the apparatus and equipment up. Fund raising (begging for money) is in addition to the numerous hours spent on calls, training, business, maintenance and I could go on. All this effort so that you can justify every little thing to people who have absolutely no clue and who's only contribution is to complain. It does get tiring and frustrating.


    I hope we never have a fire but I have fire extinguishers in the home and shop and will use them.
    As do I. Nothing is as effective as hitting a fire in its infancy. I have 5lb or larger extinguishers scattered throughout my shop and one on each end of my house. Of course, the best measures are preventative ones.

    Being a volunteer fireman is not easy
    Its also generally thankless too. That's not why any of us do it, but it sure is a nice bonus when a job well done is acknowledged.

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  • Carld
    replied
    Well, I guess I got a little carried away and ranted on some burning issues of mine. No, you can't slam everyone into the same pot so for that I'm sorry.

    We have a volunteer fire dept here supported by county taxes. They SEEM to be well trained but I have not followed them to fires to see. No one here to my knowledge is complaining.

    Several places we have lived the fire dept was not good and some would not call them for that reason. If you were not a paid member they may come to the fire and keep it from spreading outside the building but not put the fire out. We were a member of all the fire districts we lived in primarily to give them funds to work with.

    I hope we never have a fire but I have fire extinguishers in the home and shop and will use them. Being a volunteer fireman is not easy.
    Last edited by Carld; 05-17-2008, 06:34 PM.

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  • ERBenoit
    replied
    Thanks Joel, I realized I was late for something while I was "replying". You saved me a lot of typing.
    Last edited by ERBenoit; 05-17-2008, 05:02 PM.

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  • Joel
    replied
    Originally posted by J Tiers
    For instance, they OPENED EVERY DRAWER of some (metal) rollarounds on THE OTHER SIDE of the shop, 25 feet away from the fire, and carefully filled each drawer with water...... soaking mics, calipers, and tools of all kinds.
    Inexcusable. My crews would get the chewing out of the century if they did something like that. We train them to treat property as if it was their own. While this is not always realistically possible, we do pretty well. Some people don't probably don't know much about overhauling a fire. You do have to pull a lot of ceiling, wall or whatever, put water in drawers, etc. to put out all of the hot spots - lest the fire rekindle, and believe me, they will if you do not do a careful job. This laborious task comes after the intensity of putting out the fire so it is easy to get lazy. We train that there are no rekindles - you just didn't put all of the fire out - which is even more inexcusable.
    On the fire pictured above, we managed to save the majority of machinery in the unit next door (which became quickly involved from the explosions) and was no small feat. Curiously, they had a newish Grizzly bandsaw exactly like the one I just got from Enco. The Grizzly seemed to have a slightly better fit an finish.


    Originally posted by Carld
    the fire dept. always goes above and beyond the cause of the fire and tears up everything they can
    ALWAYS? Or is 'always' actually one experience and some anecdotal stories? I am willing to bet that I have been on a whole lot more fires than you have and 'never' is my personal experience.

    Originally posted by Carld
    By the way, the fire dept is not a law enforcement agency, they are just fire fighters but they do think they are the police when they get to a fire. They can and do have people arrested for "interfering with their fire".
    Actually, we own the scene and are responsible for the safety of EVERYONE there, as well as the preservation of evidence. I gotta tell you, people with attitudes like yours (fortunately, not many) make my job all that more difficult because I have to babysit the idiots to keep them from either getting themselves injured or causing a host of other problems at a time when our hands are already full. BTW, a fire marshal investigates the fire, not the firefighters. Of the last 3 fires I have been on, ALL needed careful investigations because there was foul play. 2 were arson, 1 was murder/arson. Kind of heartwarming to risk your life at 3am for no pay because jerks have to spread the joy of their chosen but twisted lifestyles.

    Originally posted by Carld
    An opinion is just that and your opinion is just as important as mine is.
    No, it is not.
    Well, 'important' would be your hang up. As for more correct, on the other hand...
    The difference being, obviously, that SOME opinions are backed by years of education, observation, training, experience and practice, while other opinions are a slap in the face to those who actually participate in such activities.

    Obviously you or someone you know has had a bad experience like J Tiers father in law, but let me ask you if you will condemn to idiocy all machinists because ONE has made you a bad part?

    If you are protected by a volunteer department, pay them and I'll bet they can afford to be more careful. Otherwise put a sock in it, because they are giving way more to their communities than you can possibly imagine.
    Last edited by Joel; 05-17-2008, 03:27 PM.

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  • ERBenoit
    replied
    Originally posted by Carld
    Precisely my point J Tiers, the fire dept. always goes above and beyond the cause of the fire and tears up everything they can and won't allow you to clean up or protect anything untill they feel like it.
    Not all departments act as you describe. This is a matter of department training and member control. If they feel that opening up every wall, ceiling, floor, closet, drawer etc. etc., and soaking everything is what is required for fire extinguishment, they need more training or leashes on thier firefighters. What was the name of that department again? I missed it.

    Originally posted by Carld
    By the way, the fire dept is not a law enforcement agency, they are just fire fighters but they do think they are the police when they get to a fire. They can and do have people arrested for "interfering with their fire".
    Can and does happen.

    Originally posted by Carld
    So I pissed some of you off huh!
    Yes you did. You painted all firefighters with the same brush, as home destroying renegades, and I didn't like it. We are not out to tear up people's homes. If you don't know what is involved, it might appear that way, but it is not.

    Any home or property owner can question the actions of the fire department if they feel damage beyond necessary was caused. Yes, fire departments can, and have been sued for damages. Some departments have lost in the courts and had to pay up.
    Last edited by ERBenoit; 05-17-2008, 05:01 PM.

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  • Carld
    replied
    Precisely my point J Tiers, the fire dept. always goes above and beyond the cause of the fire and tears up everything they can and won't allow you to clean up or protect anything untill they feel like it.

    By the way, the fire dept is not a law enforcement agency, they are just fire fighters but they do think they are the police when they get to a fire. They can and do have people arrested for "interfering with their fire".

    So I pissed some of you off huh! I have always been told not to use water on a petroleum fire, to only use a chemical extinguisher on it. As I said, if you have a hose that puts out a mist with a large amount of water it will/may control the fire. A garden hose on a large gas fire is not a good idea. You have to have the right equipment to fight a fire.

    To stop any fire you have to take away the oxygen and heat. That is what fire extinguishers are designed to do.

    Yes, I have a strong opinion on this and I don't keep my opinions to myself. An opinion is just that and your opinion is just as important as mine is.

    Yeah, and the next post will say, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, so give me your opinion, it's just as valuable as mine.

    BTW, I won't chastise you for your opinion as you did me for my opinion.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Well, I think Carl is a bit strong in his opinion......

    But, My father-in-law (also named Carl) had a shop fire...... caused by arcing in a wire, probable rodent damage.

    Limited to one corner of the shop/garage.....

    The local FD put it out in short order,..... but then soaked the whole rest of the place.

    For instance, they OPENED EVERY DRAWER of some (metal) rollarounds on THE OTHER SIDE of the shop, 25 feet away from the fire, and carefully filled each drawer with water...... soaking mics, calipers, and tools of all kinds.

    Then, he couldn't go in and save anything from rusting, because it had to be "investigated" in case he had started it to file a claim (investigation was apparently several days later)........ he finally said ^&^%$ it and got the WD40* and started in.... But he had to toss out quite a bit of stuff that was simply ruined for no reason by the FD.

    * WD40 was naturally being used for its water-displacing action...... for those who will quibble

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  • Dawai
    replied
    No gas tanks don't explode like the movies.

    I got a buddy who welds tanks up.. he wants them full of gas. He says the fumes is what explodes and purges them with either argon or exhaust.

    I can remember filling a jeep tank with water and trying to braze it up.. it popped about two or three times blowing out several dents.

    Fire is your friend as long as controlled.. when it gets out of control it is your worst nightmare. THE worst pain in the world is a burn I think.

    I can remember old soldiers talking about strapping a stick of dynamite to a GI can of gas.. how it would flatten a building. OUR gas-vapor bomb (daisy cutter) is similar. OPPS>>> a daisy cutter bomb is a conventional bomb.. look up gasoline bomb.. first used in Afganistan
    Last edited by Dawai; 05-17-2008, 10:16 AM.

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  • hitnmiss
    replied
    About 3 years ago 4 of us were coming back from dinner and saw a blaze near a house, looked very recently started.

    We drove to the house and a guy was calmly watching his newer Ranger rover with a under hood fire about 4 foot from the attached garage. We called 911 and in 20 seconds or so the fire started spreading into the neighbors tree and really got going.

    We had to snap him out of his blank stare, it was like he was a overloaded zombie.

    We asked if he had a hose and he acted like that was the best idea he'd ever heard.. Amazing. The hose turned out to be about 5' away!

    We got the hose connected (winter) and just turned on the water when the firemen showed up.

    I can still see that guy staring at his car, house and fence going up like he was at a campfire warming hisself. I wondered if I could freeze like that in a similar situation.

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  • Joel
    replied
    Originally posted by Carld
    I quess if you can put hundreds of gallons of water on it in a matter of seconds in a mist type stream, well maybe.
    What, this isn't your 'maybe' effective SOP for a lawn mower fire Eric?

    Agreed about the gas tank explosions, its just not a problem. Tires sure can get your attention at times and magnesium can prove to be quite entertaining.


    Speaking of explosions, this is where I spent much of Monday. There were about 3 dozen drums total, most containing Ethanol:

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  • ERBenoit
    replied
    Originally posted by garyphansen
    In the movies crashed cars always blow up. Does, it EVER happen in real life? I know in real life shooting holes in a gas tank will never even result in a fire unless shooting tracers or there is another source of inightion. Gary P. Hansen
    That's Hollywood. If the gas tank gets compromised, the gas leaks out and is introduced to an ignition source. That's how they "blow up". Since an automotive gas (liquid) tank is not pressurized, it would be very difficult to "blow up". Unless the tank has been tampered with to prevent venting, the tank will self vent long before it "blows up".

    Now tires, shocks, and gas struts are a different story.

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