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OT: peak oil - a myth or a real threat?

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  • #46
    complicated is an understatement.

    Why in the world would we sell oil and buy oil? I don't understand that at all.

    Why would we buy oil from a country we are selling oil to?

    Why don't we just trade credits? What is the point of buying oil from Mexico and selling oil to Mexico?

    All this sounds very stupid to me.

    Is there something to be gained from moving oil back and forth between countries?
    It's only ink and paper

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Carld
      complicated is an understatement.

      Why in the world would we sell oil and buy oil? I don't understand that at all.
      Oils ain't oils is the reason....One country may have a surplus of oil suitable for making lathe gearbox oil while another may have a surplus of oil suitable for making diesel...
      Precision takes time.

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      • #48
        Carl. Most refineries are built around a specific kind of crude oil. Saudi, Texas light-sweet , etc. A lot like asking a scotch distillary to make bourbon. Very few refineries can make product reliably from different crude oils. There are a couple in Texas, and one I know of in Canada. The more processes you add to the distillation process the more expensive it becomes.

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        • #49
          Most US oil exports are to Eastern Canada. It is much cheaper to import oil there from the US than it is to build a east/west pipeline across Canada. Most pipelines in Canada run south to the US. Also, Irving Oil has the largest refinery in Canada there which then exports refined oil products back to the US. Also, we are building new refineries in this country. In particular, Irving is well along on plans to build a second refinery in St. John, New Brunswick. The major customer for the products is the north eastern US.

          http://www.irvingoil.com/company/erock.asp
          Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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          • #50
            Ok, I understand it now.
            It's only ink and paper

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Evan
              Also, we are building new refineries in this country. In particular, Irving is well along on plans to build a second refinery in St. John, New Brunswick.
              I don't understand that aspect that -- why is it so hard for the oil companies to build new refineries in the US? Someone here posted that the Saudis are building a multi billion-dollar expansion on one of the (American?) refineries in the Gulf of Mexico.

              With Exxon making $45 Billion profit each quarter, you'd think they'd be inclined to build another refinery with the spare change. If it's just EPA regulations, why isn't Exxon building refineries in other countries? Are the new Canadian refineries being built by American companies?
              "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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              • #52
                Nope. Irving is Canadian.

                Founded in 1924 by K.C. Irving, Irving Oil is a family-owned and privately-held regional energy processing, transporting, and marketing company headquartered in Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada, with US marketing operations in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
                With over 7,000 employees, over 700 retail sites, operations from 13 marine terminals, and a delivery fleet of tractor-trailers, we serve wholesale, commercial, and retail customers in Eastern Canada, Quebec, and New England.
                Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Evan
                  No they aren't. Price now is $5.62 US per US gallon in Hong Kong. The US, Canada and just about every country in the world controls the price of gasoline in thier country. In most western countries it is controlled via gas taxes.

                  Yabbut Hong Kong isn't really China is it? Being a special administrative region and all..

                  According to CNN, gas is more like $1.50 or so in Shanghai, and most likely so in the rest of China also.


                  http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...ces/price.html

                  So, I'd say yes, the Chinese are paying much less than we are, due to gov't price controls.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by w_hartung
                    According to CNN, gas is more like $1.50 or so in Shanghai, and most likely so in the rest of China also.

                    http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...ces/price.html

                    So, I'd say yes, the Chinese are paying much less than we are, due to gov't price controls.
                    We should send all the Hummers, Chevy Suburbans and Ford Excursions that the dealers can't give away in the US to China. Let the Chinese government deal with subsidizing SUV's with 14 MPG
                    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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                    • #55
                      Sorry for the late reply, but as far as water consumption, water used in most extraction processes is logically, what is most readily available- potable drinking water from on or near surface.
                      All extraction processes currently in use have the potential to contaminate the process water beyond what anyone is willing to drink or let animals drink so the waste water is typically disposed of by injecting into a deep salty formation. Water is NOT destroyed by the processes, it is contaminated enough that it is uneconomic to clean up enough to return to the fresh (drinking water )cycle.
                      Design to 0.0001", measure to 1/32", cut with an axe, grind to fit

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by w_hartung
                        Yabbut Hong Kong isn't really China is it? Being a special administrative region and all..

                        According to CNN, gas is more like $1.50 or so in Shanghai, and most likely so in the rest of China also.


                        http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...ces/price.html

                        So, I'd say yes, the Chinese are paying much less than we are, due to gov't price controls.

                        exactly. HK isn't exactly mainstream China. also Evan said

                        Originally posted by Evan
                        If it "cost a barrel of oil to make a barrel of oil" available (it doesn't) the you end up with a net gain of a barrel of oil. You haven't lost something. You pump two barrels for an extraction cost of about 3 to 20 dollars per barrel and sell one for $130.
                        i was disagreeing with the statement that if it cost a barrel to make a barrel, you end up with a net gain of a barrel. that just isn't so. if it costs a barrel to make a barrel, your net gain is zero. as for using natural gas or some other energy source, again it doesn't really matter. if the equivalent of a single barrel of energy is used, you have used it, and it must be replaced by the same energy equivalent. saying "well, i used natural gas so it doesn't count", isn't exactly true (or realistic).

                        as for the actual extraction costs, i have no idea what they are. i was only replying to the "cost a barrel of oil to make a barrel" statement.

                        EDIT - oh, Sinopec was the company i was thinking of.

                        andy b.
                        The danger is not that computers will come to think like men - but that men will come to think like computers. - some guy on another forum not dedicated to machining

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                        • #57
                          #55
                          Not entirely true. most of the new refineries in N. America and Europe have to have effluent water clean enough for a trout to survive.


                          lazlo. It is the cost of compliance and the cost of labor. Union pipefitters make a hell of a lot of money. Steel gluers in other countries, not so much.

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                          • #58
                            According to CNN, gas is more like $1.50 or so in Shanghai, and most likely so in the rest of China also.
                            I have no idea where that number comes from. It hasn't been that cheap in years and they have recently lowered the price in time for the Olympics to make sure cabs are available. Current price in Beijing is $2.49 US per US gallon. That's about what it would be here if you removed the taxes, so it isn't exactly a subsidy. For instance, Alberta doesn't charge sales tax on anything so it's a bit hard to complain when somebody else doesn't either.

                            Also, China doesn't buy all of it's oil at world prices. They have some long term deals with African producers that don't follow the world pricing.

                            i was disagreeing with the statement that if it cost a barrel to make a barrel, you end up with a net gain of a barrel. that just isn't so. if it costs a barrel to make a barrel, your net gain is zero.
                            Not if you are using an equivalent amount of energy from another source, which is what is done in the tar sands. They use natural gas to make oil. Oil is what is needed, not natural gas. It doesn't cost anywhere near a barrel of oil worth of energy to make a barrel of oil from tar sands and far less than that for conventional oil sources.

                            Even if it did it's the oil that is the most valuable per BTU. Why do you think natural gas isn't a world commodity? Because it cannot be shipped in large quantites economically because of the very low energy density. Using it to make oil is a much better use than flaring it off because it can't be stored. It comes up with the oil like carbonation in a soft drink and there is always more available than can be processed and sent to a market via pipeline.

                            as for using natural gas or some other energy source, again it doesn't really matter. if the equivalent of a single barrel of energy is used, you have used it, and it must be replaced by the same energy equivalent. saying "well, i used natural gas so it doesn't count", isn't exactly true (or realistic).
                            See above. Again, it doesn't cost a barrel to make a barrel and there is no reason that should change.
                            Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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                            • #59
                              Rustybolt

                              It is true. Refining is just that, refining, not extraction. The two operations are separated by a few miles of pipeline or a few hundred miles of open water. The water you're referring to is largely cooling water and is not used in direct contact with the hydrocarbons or rock.

                              Comparing the two is a lot like lumping the foundry and mine with the machine and fab shop.

                              AFAIK, anyway...
                              Last edited by camdigger; 06-02-2008, 10:18 PM.
                              Design to 0.0001", measure to 1/32", cut with an axe, grind to fit

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                              • #60
                                "Oil is what is needed, not natural gas. " [snip] "Why do you think natural gas isn't a world commodity? Because it cannot be shipped in large quantites economically because of the very low energy density."

                                Unfortunately things are changing for those countries now running out of gas :-

                                http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/3555564.stm
                                Neil B.

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