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  • Do I have this right?

    I have an early 80’s JET 12” X 24” lathe. It has a 2 ¼” - 8 spindle nose. The manual states a #4MT spindle taper. The taper extends 2 3/16” into the spindle nose. I’d really like to get some collets for the lathe so I’ve been searching the forum threads for information. I know that there are several Set Tru collet chucks available but I would like to get the type of collet holder that mounts directly into the spindle nose itself. The ER system appeared to be what I was looking for. I found lots of information about the collets themselves but not too much about the collet holders. I checked MSC, ENCO and several other catalogs for what collet holder I would need, but they didn’t seem to spell that out, maybe I missed it. My SHARS catalog, (page 64) did show a chart that had the different shank/taper sizes and their corresponding ER collet series. So if I’m reading it correctly I need the MT4 shank collet holder and the ER-40 series collets; plus I’ll need to make a 5/8”-11 drawbar. After I’ve read this it almost seems a little silly to ask, but have I missed anything?
    Thanks, Tim

  • #2
    check tallgrass tools http://www.tallgrasstools.com/ER-32ColletKit.html

    archie =) =) =)

    Comment


    • #3
      archie, this won't fit my spindle nose, plus I'd still like to be able to use the spindle nose taper to hold the collet closer. Thanks for the reply.
      Tim

      Comment


      • #4
        Correct, the Tallgrass unit wont fit your spindle, but IMO this is the approach you should take. If you go with a milling type collet chuck that uses a drawbar, then you will not be able to feed stock all the way through the spindle. With the tallgrass approach, you have a collet nosepiece which threads onto your spindle, and onto that you have the ER type collet closer nut. This is a very common design for a collet chuck.

        Most likely, you will have to make the nosepiece, but if you can cut internal and external threads, and tapers, you can make it. An ER collet chuck closer nut can be purchased separately. However, the way to go is to purchace a complete MT4 ER40 collet chuck set, which would include a full range of ER40 collets, the MT4 shanked collet chuck, the closer nut, and the wrench. Take the collet chuck and put it way or set it aside. Make the collet nosepiece as I mentioned, and use it with the closer nut and wrench that comes with the set and you're done. I suggest ER40 (instead of ER32) because it has 1" capacity, more in line with the size of your spindle. What to do with the MT shank collet chuck that comes with the set? Well, if your tailstock spindle is also MT4, then use it there, along with the collet nut and collets, to hold drill bits much more accurately than a drill chuck. If your tailstock isnt MT4, then just purchase whatever MTxx ER40 collet chuck set that is appropriate for your tailstock.

        Jeff
        Last edited by mendoje; 07-06-2008, 09:32 PM.

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        • #5
          alternative

          here is an alternative again using an ER40 pass through lathe collet chuck



          This one was purchased from chester UK and it allows the full 26mmlink for about $80. It needed an adaptor plate making to fit the nose of my lathe (an obscure taper bayonet) which I made out a a slice of cast iron on the face plate. You can see in the photo I 've also got an ER40 MT3 chuck for the tailstock and my mill. This is showing a 2mm drill going into a 12mm diameter workpiece which will eventually become the speedo trip zeroing knob for a Kawasaki KH400.

          I didnt want to use the MT4 collets because I couldnt then use a the through spindle for stock. I also wanted to use the same collets (and reuse the investment in collets) for the tailstock(MT3), Drill press (MT2),my vertical mill head (MT3), Dividing head(Int 40) and horizontal mill (Int 30). Thus I needed to span 26mm (approximately the spindle hole size) to a few mill and 4 types of connection. This was the ideal solution for me. If it seems familar its because its almost the same as old tiffies

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Timo
            archie, this won't fit my spindle nose, plus I'd still like to be able to use the spindle nose taper to hold the collet closer. Thanks for the reply.
            Tim
            Tim,

            You're getting good advice. The ER40 adapter can be built on a larger hex stock base. I've made some ER-40 adapters on larger hex's and I'll see if I've got something to fit your spindle. If I have, I'm open to selling just steel, drawings and steel, the whole thing or whatever works for you.

            Alternatively you can get a length of hex stock from a steel supplier and the nut and wrench for any of the industrial suppliers - I usually use J&L. If you machine it to your spindle, with a good fit for the register, then turn the collet cavity in situ, you can't get better accuracy and repeatability with anything else.

            Jan - Tallgrass Tools
            .
            "People will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time they will pick themselves up and carry on" : Winston Churchill

            Comment


            • #7
              Jan, I’m sure I’m getting good advise. My problem is I’m having a hard time visualizing all of it. I guess I’m not the sharps knife in the draw, plus it sounds like some of the machine work might be beyond my capabilities at this point. That’s why I wanted something that would just slip into the spindle and I’d be good to go; albeit, short stock only --- there’s always the 3 jaw.
              Tim

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Timo
                Jan, I’m sure I’m getting good advise. My problem is I’m having a hard time visualizing all of it. I guess I’m not the sharps knife in the draw, plus it sounds like some of the machine work might be beyond my capabilities at this point. That’s why I wanted something that would just slip into the spindle and I’d be good to go; albeit, short stock only --- there’s always the 3 jaw.
                Tim
                You could always just start with a MT4 to ER40 collet chuck, some collets and a piece of M16 all thread rod and a M16 nut and you are good to go with short stock. Then you could progress to doing the other things with the collets later.
                A MT4 ER40 collet chuck and collets can be had very cheaply from ebay shops. All of the jobs I've done so far with my collet set could have been done with just that set up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Timo
                  Jan, I’m sure I’m getting good advise. My problem is I’m having a hard time visualizing all of it. I guess I’m not the sharps knife in the draw, plus it sounds like some of the machine work might be beyond my capabilities at this point. That’s why I wanted something that would just slip into the spindle and I’d be good to go; albeit, short stock only --- there’s always the 3 jaw.
                  Tim
                  Tim,

                  This is a section of the adapter, in this case an 1-1/2 - 8 to an ER-40.



                  In your case you'd use 2-1/2" hex instead of 2". You machine the internal thread to match your spindle as shown on the left. Remove it from the chuck, remove the chuck and thread your hex onto the spindle. Now do the external thread for the nut and the 8 degree taper for the collet.

                  If you have doubts about fitting the internal thread, make up a dummy like your spindle nose and make sure it will screw into your existing chucks. Then you have a test gauge as you do the threads on the adapter.
                  .
                  "People will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time they will pick themselves up and carry on" : Winston Churchill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Jan,
                    It’s amazing how a picture can make things so much clearer. Thanks. By the way, how do you attach a picture to a post. I've read the sticky but I'm having a little trouble on how to bypass photobucket and attach a picture directly to a post.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      With TGTools method you need to get a good fit on the threads and register before you cut the thread and taper for the ER.
                      Another disadvantage is that it will still be soft and can wear or mar in use, admittedly not a lot for home shop.

                      There has been about 3 attempts in the UK to source some Myford thread to ER 32's but all have failed on repeatability.

                      With Derekm method [ post # 5 ] you get to machine the register in situ and if anything moves at a later date you have the chance to skim the register and adjust it to run true.
                      Another advantage is the off the shelf backplate chucks are hardened and ground and they can be swapped over forom machine to machine if needed.

                      .
                      .

                      Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I would ignore the threads and make a sleave that goes into the #4 taper and mates with a 5C collet system with a cam lock draw tube.

                        ER collets might be fine for turning but I found they are junk on a milling machine and holding an endmill. it seems you have to hammer it as tight as hell to get it to hold worth a crap.

                        After I had to do some high precision fixture work in some hard ass stainless for our tool and die guy with a mill that had a 40 taper to ER adapter I promised myself I would never use the stupid ER collets ever again. The adapter and the collets should go in the scrap bin and be melted down to be manhole covers. I will never like ER collets, total junk IMHO.

                        you should be able to fine a 5C collet system that can be mated with your lathe and just has a bushing you pop in the spindle. they are a dandy set up, you would like it better than pounding on a ER collet nut with a hammer.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Mike,
                          So why don't you use 5C's in the nose of your milling machine then ?

                          Just up the road from me is an aerospace company running 7 DMG machining centres and two Hass bed mills, 5 axis.
                          The Hass's are making wing spars for Boeing, 11 hours to do one, 42 tool changes per shift, two spars per day, no operators.

                          All these tool are in BT40 ER32 holders as are the DMG's. they have a few ER40 for large shanked tooling but most of thier work is standardised on ER32's

                          We don't see end mill holders over here or R8 on anything bigger than an X3. Single angle collets went out years ago.
                          The UK and Europe have been on ER's now for about the last 10 years.

                          Sorry we got it wrong.

                          .
                          .

                          Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Stevenson
                            Mike,
                            So why don't you use 5C's in the nose of your milling machine then ?

                            Just up the road from me is an aerospace company running 7 DMG machining centres and two Hass bed mills, 5 axis.
                            The Hass's are making wing spars for Boeing, 11 hours to do one, 42 tool changes per shift, two spars per day, no operators.

                            All these tool are in BT40 ER32 holders as are the DMG's. they have a few ER40 for large shanked tooling but most of thier work is standardised on ER32's

                            We don't see end mill holders over here or R8 on anything bigger than an X3. Single angle collets went out years ago.
                            The UK and Europe have been on ER's now for about the last 10 years.

                            Sorry we got it wrong.

                            .
                            I dont care if you use ER, keep a hammer handy to beat the damn things tight if you ever have to horse on some hard stuff.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tattoomike68
                              you should be able to fine a 5C collet system that can be mated with your lathe and just has a bushing you pop in the spindle. they are a dandy set up, you would like it better than pounding on a ER collet nut with a hammer.
                              5C is the way to go. Back in 83’ when I got the lathe, ROYAL would custom make a 5C nose piece adapter with a tube type draw bar and a hand wheel tighten’r for a MT4 spindle taper. The cost was about half of what I paided for the lathe so I had to pass on that. Awhile ago I checked with ROYAL again and they told me that they no longer offered this service. I think that the 5C is the best way to go but nobody seems to offer the tube type draw bar and a 5C nose adapter to fit different size spindle nose tapers. If you know where this is available (at a not to outrageous price please) let me know.

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