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  • #16
    I agree that WE could easily do this.

    Can the average "village denizen" deal with it?

    Can they make more parts when birds, dogs, or whatever mess it up?

    Now about the parts? Are they available if a magnet comes off and can't be found, or a coil gets messed up?

    That's the point..... its a combo of low and high tech. WE think its cool and low tech, but WE are not typical of those folks, who have adapted to their environment, as we have to ours.

    Theirs does not include really ANY technology of significance, especially electrical, in their everyday lives that they can maintain. But they can maintain their houses and animals and crops far better than many here could.

    To them it is high tech...... mysterious, and non-fixable. maybe.
    1601

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan

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    • #17
      "J Tiers I agree that WE could easily do this."

      Though a US citizen, natural born, I kind of resent that comment.

      I have not even read the article linked to, but why in the hell could not others in other countries handle whatever obstructions they come up against?

      How many here have problems with machines made here for the last 100 years. We don't have a good grasp of our own technology.

      You deride less advanced people as to whether they can repair what you might call "infrastructure".

      Our own infrastructure is so complex that when you have a problem you call them with expertise to solve your problem. Internet is acting up? Call India. Cable is out? Call India.

      THEY could easily do that, too, given a bit of money and encouragement.

      We are not God's Gift to anyone.

      Cheers,

      George

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      • #18
        JTiers has a point in that this technology is not for the most backward of the backward. However, most places have some idea about technology. Many poverty-crushed places in Africa, for example, have cars, junkyards, and so forth.

        I'm pretty confident there is a type of can-do person in those places that could make repairs and improvements.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by tony ennis
          JTiers has a point in that this technology is not for the most backward of the backward. However, most places have some idea about technology. Many poverty-crushed places in Africa, for example, have cars, junkyards, and so forth.

          I'm pretty confident there is a type of can-do person in those places that could make repairs and improvements.
          The most backward of the backward need something. What ever it is is going to be beyond their understanding for part of one generation. The generation that never knew anything else will be ready for bigger things and so it goes. If you give people electricity - even just a little bit of it, and they can listen to a radio, their universe is expanded. Via radio, ideas and concepts travel at the speed of light. And there are no successful societies that do not own the night. That takes artificial light.

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          • #20
            The third world has has a resource availible but the leftists don't want them to use it, it's called oil.
            We send millions of dollars worth of food to Africa every year but the UN and the EU embargo African agricuitural products, removing any incentive for African farmers to improve their lot.

            George,
            I love how anyone who make a statement about the real world is suddendly a racist by your standards, how have all the qualities necssary to be one of Lennin's useful idiots.
            Non, je ne regrette rien.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by dp
              It is 10% efficient. A towering windmill is 90% efficient.
              The efficiency of a propeller-type wind turbine cannot exceed the Betz Limit, which is 16/27. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz_limit.

              Perhaps you meant 90% of the Betz Limit, which equates to 53% efficiency for a well-design wind turbine.
              Last edited by aostling; 01-12-2009, 04:37 AM.
              Allan Ostling

              Phoenix, Arizona

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by chief
                The third world has has a resource availible but the leftists don't want them to use it, it's called oil.
                We send millions of dollars worth of food to Africa every year but the UN and the EU embargo African agricuitural products, removing any incentive for African farmers to improve their lot.

                George,
                I love how anyone who make a statement about the real world is suddendly a racist by your standards, how have all the qualities necssary to be one of Lennin's useful idiots.
                Chief, mellow out. I don't know what you're reading, but African countries that do have oil export it - we get just under a million barrels a day from Nigeria, and Angola's good for another half million. (LINK) The political problems in Africa are fierce after decades of colonial rule and puppet despots supported by the great powers.

                Fixing the agricultural products problems are going to take sacrifices from everyone - the US protects it's sugar industry, milk production, etc. Countries have good reasons to keep out mass imports from abroad - low cost imports can wipe out native farmers, and if the foreign crops fail or politics change - instant rebellion of hungry citizens.

                The reason for appropriate technology in the developing world is not because the people there are dumb, it's because they don't have a lot of infrastructure. Outboard motors are absurd technology for Pacific Islanders - they take expensive gas, and don't live long in the ocean, and are hard to fix. Far better to supply them better material for sails (blue tarps are popular and better than palm fronds, but don't live long in the sun) a proper compass is a precious tool) . These generators seem pretty fixable - the electronics could be sealed and cheap, and the rest is repairable by any one skilled w/ their hands.
                Bart Smaalders
                http://smaalders.net/barts

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                • #23
                  I saw a large structure that was guyed w/ 2" wide ratcheting straps last year; those straps flapped like crazy in the slightest wind.
                  (I know everyone has had straps get noisy while hauling loads!)

                  Not everyone. Put a half twist in the strap and it will not flap.
                  Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by aostling
                    The efficiency of a propeller-type wind turbine cannot exceed the Betz Limit, which is 16/27. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz_limit.

                    Perhaps you meant 90% of the Betz Limit, which equates to 53% efficiency for a well-design wind turbine.
                    Sorry for not being more clear - I was setting up a worst-case number set as an example to demonstrate the value of replication of the wind belt method. The actual efficiencies are variable depending on wind conditions and propellers/impellers are very inefficient at low speeds and outside the speed range for which they are designed and expensive to replicate. They never exceed the Betz limit.

                    The target area for these things is in the under 100 watt category where there isn't much commercial activity.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by chief
                      The third world has has a resource availible but the leftists don't want them to use it, it's called oil.
                      Pitcairn Island has no natural oil. Tuvalu Island barely has a natural island left, but certainly no natural oil. There is no natural oil on Easter Island, Tonga, nor Tristan de Cunha. And so on.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Evan
                        Not everyone. Put a half twist in the strap and it will not flap.
                        So you're saying you were born with that knowledge?

                        Learned that when I was a kid, but I wasn't born with the knowledge, it came with experience, and I for one am not afraid to admit that I've had a few occasions to say ooops.

                        So, from now on, whenever I say "everyone" please read that to mean "everyone but Evan"

                        Ken.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by gmatov
                          "J Tiers I agree that WE could easily do this."

                          Though a US citizen, natural born, I kind of resent that comment.

                          I have not even read the article linked to, but why in the hell could not others in other countries handle whatever obstructions they come up against?

                          How many here have problems with machines made here for the last 100 years. We don't have a good grasp of our own technology.

                          You deride less advanced people as to whether they can repair what you might call "infrastructure".

                          Our own infrastructure is so complex that when you have a problem you call them with expertise to solve your problem. Internet is acting up? Call India. Cable is out? Call India.

                          THEY could easily do that, too, given a bit of money and encouragement.

                          We are not God's Gift to anyone.

                          Cheers,

                          George
                          Now you see why you were on "the list".........

                          "WE", because "WE" and our fathers, and our grandfathers etc, have all grown up in an industrial society, "we" know ABOUT things, even if we don't know the "how" etc.

                          You have to put yourself in the mindset of a person who lives literally in a grass hut, maybe , (because it is very practical and available, not because they are stupid), and has had virtually no contact with even 1800s technology. They certainly have seen it, but have likely had zero opportunity to understand it, or maybe even touch it.

                          YOU cannot even comprehend that, because you have always been in a world with "stuff".

                          Now, your ancestors stopped swinging from the trees and figured out, even invented, what we don't even see because it is everywhere.....

                          There is NO reason why people like those villagers can't do that, but it takes generations for the idea to penetrate, just as it did with your hick ancestors, and mine. The villagers will have it easier, they don't have to invent it all, they just need to use it.

                          But, who has a magnet, or a piece of thin mylar, a coil of insulated wire,or even the glue to put them together, in a place 200 miles from any town, where there is no electricity within 150 miles?

                          It's easy to teach a hick how to use a radio.

                          It is NOT easy to teach a hick who only knows how to just barely USE a radio, how to FIX one.
                          Last edited by J Tiers; 01-12-2009, 09:44 PM.
                          1601

                          Keep eye on ball.
                          Hashim Khan

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Evan
                            Not everyone. Put a half twist in the strap and it will not flap.
                            That works pretty well, although w/ really long straps (longer than you get on 8' width trucks) they still flap...
                            Bart Smaalders
                            http://smaalders.net/barts

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by davidh
                              how many of those little suckers would it take to boil up a cup of coffee ?

                              neat idea to try here in the frozen, windy northland on the shores of lake superior.

                              sorry, couldn't resist.
                              Well, lets see. 40 milliWatts X 1000 = 40 Watts. That should heat a cup of water in fairly short order.
                              Paul A.
                              SE Texas

                              Make it fit.
                              You can't win and there IS a penalty for trying!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by J Tiers
                                It is NOT easy to teach a hick who only knows how to just barely USE a radio, how to FIX one.
                                People are amazing... the same baby can be a medieval peasant, a brain surgeon or a truck driver, depending on environment and experiences when growing up... while I was in graduate school, one of our house mates was from Sierra Leone, where he'd grown up in a tiny village, gardening and hunting for food in the forest. Peace Corps volunteers had come to the village and started a school... they recognized this guy as bright, and he ended up a/ a high school education and got accepted somehow to UC Davis, where he was a graduate student by the time I met him. Very nice guy...

                                Given a bright individual, they really can learn anything they put their minds to... if they're behind when they start out, they'll catch up. The US Army showed this during WWII, taking young men from all over the country and training them to use, diagnose, and repair machinery they'd never seen before, and in just a few short months. The industrial revolution didn't come w/ training manuals, either, until later on...

                                I will agree that training people w/ no interest, poor attention spans and/or below average intelligence is frustrating, and can be a task best left to the porcine choirmasters amongst us....

                                - Bart
                                Bart Smaalders
                                http://smaalders.net/barts

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