Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

standard of manual training since 1970/s

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • standard of manual training since 1970/s

    Its a a funny old world nowadays, but it would seem that training of craftpersons aint what it used to be I will give some examples O.K. a lot of what we do with our lives, and how we interact with those around us, our mannerisms, ability to learn, and general usefulness to society might i suppose depend greatly on our start in life, proper up bringing etc.

    I was speaking to a foreman engineer some two years ago, who said his company had decided to start six apprentices Things went as follows--
    Monday morning 8 am. started the young persons, put them to work under some suitable craftsmen, 10-30 am one was put to work on a small bar lathe after the previous one and a half hours of safety training, half an hour later, the foreman was told by the young budding craftsman, where he could stick his lathe! This is boring and not for me
    Dinner break came other three did not return -- Never seen again
    4 gone, we are not doing too well the foreman thought
    Tuesday came along all seemed to be well,although the last of the machine shop trainees was mumping and moaning a bit, Never mind folk can be like that, The other apprentice was assigned to the electrical maintenance section, his face was black and grimy big grin, statement Boss this is brilliant , working like a trojan
    The fifth remaining m/c shop apprentice demanded to be allowed to operate the big cnc milling machine, because manual machines like the small machine he was working was too boring, The big cnc cost about half a million pounds sterling , The operator on the big fellow was not amused, ,as he was a man of about 30 years vast experience, So the poor lad walked out
    The last one sixth of the intake of tomorrows craftsmen, is according to the shop foreman got the potential to be one of tomorrows middle management or foreman grade, A kid with an innate sense of wanting to know how things work, and how can i sort out any breakdown or emergency
    Many of todays youngsters would have jumped at the chance of learning a skill , Maybe in some ways things might be a bit too easy in folks formative years ?
    Another occurance happened in the last few weeks, a friend of mine who dabbles a bit in clockmaking got for himself one of the little far east lathes, the quality of this machine was pretty fair, and in spite of not having any great degree of mechanical training (he was an electricians labourer) Has been turning out remarkably fine work,and producing nice little attachments for his machine too a high standard, And his clock repairs also are most commendable Along comes his pal, who had electrical/mechanical training & certificates also, demanding to use his new lathe, as an aside our worthy colleage had managed to completely muff up about four nice clocks, so my friend would not let him near his machine, Along came another earlier pattern of these far east lathes at a cheap price, so we obtained it for my friends friend, I spent about three days, scraping in parts of this machine to obtain a reasonable degree of accuracy, As obtained it was dire as regards quality
    Our technical man, was complaining about the chuck not running true, these chucks are fitted onto a flange He had placed the spring washers onto the face of the chuck, and then tightened the nuts on the back of the flange -- Absolutely Incredible! I would have thought a very elementary mechanical skill, washers under the nuts, He then burned out the controls by going away & leaving the power on the speed control, He was well warned this is a no no on a lot of these little machines
    I am not totally blaming the man for his mistakes but depending on the particular seat of learning one obtains their basic training seems to be a lottery as to the finished useful product Maybe nowadays, we are tending to loose track of the basic machanical skills, everyone seems to be taught clever theories and the little finer points dont seem to come anywhere into the equation manual skills take a back seat

    One of the local kids in my street is an academic, lots of qualifications and for his summer placement before going of to the university, was given a placement with an electrical concern, the report i recieved from the head of that concern was again he was a natural with tools, excellent practical abilities a worker he will go to high office i am certain in his chosen electrical field
    Yes much depends on the early learning, but also the person,__ You might like to give your thoughts guys, before the wester world finally implodes and we have no craftspersons.

  • #2
    Mac.
    Not wanting to snatch your thread but I did see on the local news that Rolls Royce are going to start their apprenticeship scheme up again and take on 220 lads.
    .

    Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



    Comment


    • #3
      Its a a funny old world nowadays, but it would seem that training of craftpersons aint what it used to be
      The world ain't what it used to be either. However, in British Columbia we have excellent apprenticeship training programs. Many can be started while in school at age 16. For an example here is the description of the machinist apprenticeship program. Note that NC Machines isn't even mentioned until level four. The full CNC training program is another training program that is available after you pass this one as a manual machinist. There is still a large demand for manual machinists here.



      Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

      Comment


      • #4
        Unfortunately most things that require effort and half a grey one are classed as BORING by lots (Not All) of youfs today. Concentration lasts as long as required untill it becomes time to press the reset button. The examples in the first post are typical and point to the basic problem of if yer don't like the alloted task, yer can always bu**er orft and you'll get bailed out. You don't have to leave the house cos we'll send your dole cheque through the post. You can hardly be surprised that the manual skills have been ALLOWED to deteriorate when in the past, if Lord John or I came home from school with a grubby piece of plaster/bandage wrapped round our finger cos the saw "slipped" in woodwork, "Be more careful" would have been the stock answer. Today if little Freddy bruises his EGO it's a witchhunt and who can we sue. He ain't going to cut his finger cos they don't do woodwork anymore, the education departments would go bankrupt in a very short time. Sadly, when you talk to the little darlings, they all want to go to Uny cos they've had it rammed down their throats by the intelligencia that the only good jobs require a degree (OR a big black Beemer)

        OH BOY, is this recession going to sort the weed from the chaff.

        Regards Ian.
        You might not like what I say,but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

        Comment


        • #5
          Today if little Freddy bruises his EGO it's a witchhunt and who can we sue.
          Well, for starters you can sue the grossly incompetent shop teacher that allowed his students to cast aluminum outside in the snow a couple of days ago here.

          5 B.C. students burned in shop class gone wrong


          By Kent Spencer , Vancouver Province January 22, 2009

          Five students have been burned by an aluminum explosion at an eastern B.C. secondary school that parents say should never have happened.

          William Young, 18, said on Wednesday that students at Revelstoke secondary school were asked to pour molten aluminum as part of their shop class on Jan. 14.

          When it contacted with water, the explosion "sounded like a small cannon" and students were showered by a 2,000-degree spray of hot projectiles. Some bits were the size of raindrops, others were as large as loonies.

          "It felt like putting my arm against a wood stove," said Young. "There was a smell of burning flesh."

          http://www.montrealgazette.com/stude...228/story.html
          Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes Evan, but we HAD a woodwork room and a metalwork room, with the correct equipment and COMPETANT teachers who did nothing else but teach woodwork and metalwork. Long gone, lost to Media studies and Self expression classes. Sadly the teacher involved now has to appreciate that not everything can be learned from books.
            You might not like what I say,but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan
              Well, for starters you can sue the grossly incompetent shop teacher that allowed his students to cast aluminum outside in the snow a couple of days ago here.
              What's wrong with that ??

              Casting and heat treatment in one lesson.
              .

              Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



              Comment


              • #8
                Why would the young want to work when they can stay home with mom and dad?
                It's only ink and paper

                Comment


                • #9
                  Don't blame the kids, their parents raised them to be that way, blame them.

                  I may start recruiting on farms, they seem to be the only kids that have parents that make them do any work.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sounds familiar. For a good part of the last 20 years I worked, I had apprentices. Some were good, while others were, to be blunt, worthless.

                    The automotive industry is going through the same thing, now. Older, experienced mechanics are leaving the business, either due to their health, or the compensation they have been getting. That was my trade, for 40 years.
                    Th average mechanic is paid by the job (piecework, or commission), they are not expected, but required, to supply their own tools (at great expense, I might add) I learned the "hard way" back when a young guy could get help from the more experienced mechanics in the shop...Today, it's a whole different game. Nobody has apprentices, nobody can take the time out to help the inexperienced. The pay, per job, has been pared down to practically nothing, so, in order to make a living, one has to hustle, all of the time, or lose money. Gone are the "old days" when you took pride in your work, and went that extra step to insure it went out the door as perfect as you knew how to get it..gone. Now, it's quantity, not quality.

                    Kids, fresh out of school can go to a "trade school"....There are many across the US. Unfortunately, they teach with obsolete equipment, poorly trained instructors, and, to make matters worse, they charge plenty.

                    The schools also fill the heads students with propaganda....Some have been telling their graduates that they can make $100,000 a year, right out of trade school.....which would be nice, because a graduate degree from these schools can run up to a quarter of a million dollars.

                    In the "real world", these bright eyed kids find themselves called upon to diagnose and repair "state of the art" cars and trucks...with training that's ten to fifteen years out of date....and nobody standing by to guide them....this could get ugly (and it does)....

                    I consider myself fortunate. Growing up, I had three uncles and a father that were journeyman machinists. My uncles had a small home shop, which I spent most of my time in. By the time I was 18, I was an accomplished machinist, welder, and mechanic. This training served me well throughout my career.

                    The last time I visited my old high school, (class reunion) I went to the building where they taught auto shop and metal shop....It's not there any more...The metal shop is a detention hall, and the auto shop is where the building maintenance guy keeps his lawn mowers and tools. No industrial arts classes are offered any more. The problem is twofold....finding teachers qualified and experienced to teach the class is one....and attendance...Yeah, most kids today want to be "Rappers" and drug dealers (well, not all of them)
                    So, they closed up both shops.

                    Strangely enough. Years ago, I read a science fiction novel about a world in the future where all of the fantastic, high tech machines people had were breaking down, and failing. The people who repaired and maintained the machines were a rarity, so the society was slowly falling into a primitive state. "Techs" were looked upon as "high priests" of the society, and were hard pressed to keep a few machines serviceable...It was an interesting novel...Unfortunately, I can't remember the author or the title of it...I'd like to read it again. It was a prophecy that is coming true.
                    No good deed goes unpunished.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Try H.G.Wells The Time Machine
                      You might not like what I say,but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        While it may be tempting to blame everything on the world going to hell, I don't think that's really the case. Some people have the "mechanical" gene; some don't.

                        A friend of mine has two sons. One of them is a natural salesman. He can sell anything to anybody. He has ZERO interest in his dad's shop. The other one moved his bedroom into the basement so he could easily take a nap when he got tired wrenching on his latest motorcycle rebuild project. He loves anything even remotely connected with tools and machinery.

                        Is one son "better" than the other? No, they are both great kids, they are both hard workers, but if the first one tried to work in a shop he'd be miserable forever, and never be good at it no matter how hard he tried.
                        ----------
                        Try to make a living, not a killing. -- Utah Phillips
                        Don't believe everything you know. -- Bumper sticker
                        Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. -- Will Rogers
                        There are lots of people who mistake their imagination for their memory. - Josh Billings
                        Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
                        Don't own anything you have to feed or paint. - Hood River Blackie

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Circlip
                          Unfortunately most things that require effort and half a grey one are classed as BORING by lots (Not All) of youfs today.
                          You mean aside from all those studying engineering, electronics, etc?

                          Originally posted by Circlip
                          Sadly, when you talk to the little darlings, they all want to go to Uny cos they've had it rammed down their throats by the intelligencia that the only good jobs require a degree (OR a big black Beemer)
                          I don't think it's the intelligentsia that's responsible; just look at the rewards.
                          I took shop classes in high school, and loved it. But it was very clear that the a job as an engineer would pay far more and offer more interesting work than working with my hands. In the few cases where I've had jobs that allowed me to design, simulate and fabricate my projects, it's been near perfect.
                          Bart Smaalders
                          http://smaalders.net/barts

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by barts
                            You mean aside from all those studying engineering, electronics, etc?



                            I don't think it's the intelligentsia that's responsible; just look at the rewards.
                            I took shop classes in high school, and loved it. But it was very clear that the a job as an engineer would pay far more and offer more interesting work than working with my hands. In the few cases where I've had jobs that allowed me to design, simulate and fabricate my projects, it's been near perfect.
                            That's exactly it - I went to technical college and got my motorcycle mechanic certification. I worked hard for it, and was excited to start it as a career - until I realized after graduation that I made more than twice as much delivering pizza than I would in the next ten years of wrenching.

                            I stuck with the pizza delivery job and now I'm in my second year of my engineering degree.

                            Around here, at least, the trades seem to all be dead end - you start at nine bucks an hour and stay there for ten or fifteen years.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I envy people who had the chance to start young. I took shop classes, I excelled in them, but the "guidance and placement" expert in the school office felt that I would be "wasted" learning a trade and steered me into a bunch of office-skill and computer classes. All old-time DOS (2 and 3.X!) and Apple ][ stuff, and a smattering of Commodore 64. Ah yeah, thanks to the Football and Volleyball teams we had the best computer-lab they could assemble from donations... but hey that "undefeated" legacy counts for something!

                              As I understand it my class was the last to get to use the machines because of a "fear of lawsuits" never mind the fact that there hadn't been a serious accident in decades. The other part of equation is they wanted that room to expand the art-department and since the art-teacher had more pull with the board than the shop teacher guess who's programs got axed?

                              I'd love the chance to actually work with Masters of the trade and learn something beyond the basic production "work harder not smarter or faster" on-the-job training that I have gotten. Oh I'm grateful for even that but it leaves a huge hole. I know there are solutions to some of the problems I see in production but as the mentality is "work harder not faster or smarter" I don't get to learn these tricks.

                              Everyone says "ask questions" but a temporary employee who shows any interest in the machines is often shown the door, can't have an uppity temp thinking he's worth something. I admit, one shop I actually took matters into my own hands and changed a tool-bit because the Production Lead Tech was on extended smoke-break all night. Got fired for "tampering with the equipment" whereas the chap over on the other machine who stopped running because he was making scrap... he got fired for not producing enough.

                              Didn't matter to either the Forman or Engineer or the Lead Operator or Production Lead Tech (titles ) that here is someone with enough OTJ and experience (seven years at this point) to lend a hand in production. No they were too busy trying to protect their turf. If you must know this was a screw machine shop out by the airport near Wegmans Corperate HQ. If you know the area you know the company.

                              If I could do it all over again I'd force the issue with the school about staying in the shop-classes. You take someone out of a clas they are getting 90-95 percentile grades in and put them in a class they pull a C- in yeah something is wrong. Gee depression Junior and Senior year? Wonder why!

                              That said I wonder if there are really any "true" apprenticeships out there in the machining trades. Or have employers switched over totally to hiring newly minted CNC Jockies out of the Community College?
                              This product has been determined by the state of California to cause permanent irreversible death. This statement may or may not be recognized as valid by all states.
                              Heirs of an old war/that's what we've become Inheriting troubles I'm mentally numb
                              Plastic Operators Dot Com

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X