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  • I`ve Come To A Conclusion

    Just some thoughts on machines . Chinese verse what ever. I am old enough to remember when crap came out of Japan . Now they build some of the best . When crap came out of Taiwan now some good stuff. Next was China Still some sorry stuff but getting a lot better all the time.
    For a home shop where the buyer is using the product and going to take care of it it will do its job. I do not think it will hold up well in a commercial shop environment. Now things are getting better and in a few 5-10 years their stuff will be real good and better as time goes on. the big problem I see with it now is getting parts for things made a few years ago and later .Weather from Taiwan are China.
    So my thinking is study up on what you want to buy try to compare to other equal items and make a educated decision.
    Now I know with China stuff it is some what hard to do. But I would not give a second thought about Taiwanese are Japanese tools .
    Now I know Old American is nice but remember it is just that Old. And not every one is going to find a brand new old lathe are mill with only 3 hours of use on it. My best suggestion is if you can not touch and feel it before you put your money down is to do not buy it If they want take it back.
    If you are going to try to make money with it ,buy the very best you can and do not skimp. but for home hobby use almost any thing will work.
    Every Mans Work Is A Portrait of Him Self
    http://sites.google.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES
    http://s178.photobucket.com/user/lan...?sort=3&page=1

  • #2
    You know Lane, now when I order a new tool, if it says "Made in India" on it, I curse out loud, I am much happier to see China than India on my tools.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lane
      Just some thoughts on machines .

      The big problem I see with it now is getting parts for things made a few years ago and later .Whether from Taiwan are China.
      I don't think this is such a problem as first thought.
      I have big variety of machines, 3 from eastern Europe, the CVA from the UK, Beaver mill for Norwich in the UK, MDI bridgport from Adcock and Shipley, manual Bridgy again from A&S, Myford MG10 grinder and with the exception of some of the Bridgy bits none have available spares.

      There may be a chance on the big TOS but to be honest I wouldn't be able to afford them.

      Colchersters want £600 for a cross slide feed screw.

      If we have the machines we can make most of the breakable parts and when they get too badly worn on major parts is it really worth it to rebuild one ?

      .
      .

      Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



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      • #4
        Lane, I agree with you 100%, BillH , I agree on the stuff from India, and John is right about making our own parts too, even parts for old made in USA iron. JIM
        jim

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        • #5
          Crap equipment can and has been built by every country in the world, Remember the Ford Edsel, or the Pinto, Explodes on impact. Starrett has some of their tools made in China. If the specifications for materials, tollerance, fit and finish are adhered to then it really doesn't matter where the item is made it should be the same.

          The problem is their is no such thing as cheap and very accurate. China can and does beat other countrys on cost due to cheaper labour, lax environmental laws, Little or no saftey rules and regulations to follow, ect. The more educated the average chinese worker gets the more they will demand the above causeing prices to rise. Then what, The people that bankrole these business's will move to Africa or where ever it's cheap and the cycle will start over again.

          Pete

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lane
            China Still some sorry stuff but getting a lot better all the time.
            People keep saying that, but I've never seen a single instance of a Chinese tool that has gotten better over time. In fact, from the models I've seen and run, the mill/drills and 12x36 lathes from the 80's were a lot nicer than the ones you buy now.

            I've posed this question before: can anyone show a single Chinese tool that is better than it's predecessor?

            The problem is their is no such thing as cheap and very accurate
            Exactly -- you get what you pay for. Chinese tools are not improving because their clientele in the West want cheap tools, not quality tools. The Chinese are certainly capable of making better quality tools, IMHO, but Harbor Freight, Arc Euro, Enco, Grizzly, Industrial Hobbies won't pay for it. Or more accurately, their customers won't pay for it.

            By the way, I also agree with John -- most parts are unavailable for any machine except the Bridgeport, and even in the rare cases where Monarch, or Hardinge or Clausing or Logan still stock the part, they want several hundred dollars for a crossfeed nut, which is just ridiculous.
            Last edited by lazlo; 03-06-2009, 10:44 PM.
            "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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            • #7
              Well we al know John is right .I just did not think of that point when writing.And besides I bought a new South bend Lathe in 1980 and have never needed any thing for it . But wonder about my Taiwanese Acer Sold under the Acer name has the name Andies painted on the control plate on front and the parts book has another name . If I need any thing have no idea where to even look for parts. If I could not make it my self.
              Again you can not even afford parts for name brand American stuff . nothing is in stock and they have to have it made at 2009 prices like John said . I had a Cincinnati no 2 tool and cutter grinder given to me a number of years back about 1992 are so .I tried to buy from Cincinnati just the stranded tooling that came with the grinder new about 12 items they wanted $60,000 for them and 12 weeks delivery. I said thank you and hung up.So if you need a part you had better be able to make it . Are find a buddy that can.
              ( You know that may be a idea )
              What if we could help each other out . If some one need something they cant make with what they have they could post and some one could offer to make the part for them. Kind of a barter service. Do not know just how it could are would work ,but open to ideas. Any takers.
              uncle pete I agree I do not think even any one mfg. makes every thing top of the line . Over the years of buying tools I would buy certain items of this brand and something else from another just because I did not think a certain item was any good in that brand verse another.
              And Laxlo you raised a point I do not have a answer to . I stayed away and still do from Chinese stuff for the most part .
              Last edited by lane; 03-06-2009, 10:51 PM.
              Every Mans Work Is A Portrait of Him Self
              http://sites.google.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES
              http://s178.photobucket.com/user/lan...?sort=3&page=1

              Comment


              • #8
                The Chinese can, and do, make very high-quality products. In many respects, they're already at the level where Japan was- quality wise- less than a decade ago.

                The issue is us.

                We want cheap sh*t. Our buyers don't go to the Chinese manufacturers and ask "how good can you make this?", they ask "how cheap can you make this".

                Right here; Virtually none of us buy $100-a-block Aloris toolpost holders, and few buy even the $25-a-block Grizzly imports. Nope, we buy the $10-a-block CDCO blocks, and even then wait for an $8-a-block sale.

                The fact of the matter is, virtually all of us- as in, Americans in general- buy on price. The $100 DVD player outsells the $150 DVD player by ten to one. We'll buy bars of HSS for fifty cents a stick and fight with the weak metallurgy and low performance rather than spending $1.50 on a quality American tool.

                But just because we are demanding cheap crap, doesn't mean the Chinese can't make a quality product. They can, and do, and will continue to do so. I have no doubt they could make a lathe every bit as good as a Monarch 10EE- though perhaps not as pretty- but it'll cost not much less than the real thing would, or did.

                But we don't want- and won't buy- $50,000 lathes. We will, however, buy up adequate $2,500 lathes by the truckload.

                But again, just because we won't buy it, doesn't mean they can't make it.

                Doc.
                Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lazlo
                  I've posed this question before: can anyone show a single Chinese tool that is better than it's predecessor?
                  -Can you show me a single buyer that has voluntarily asked to pay more?

                  For many years, we were demanding ever-cheaper prices, and readily accepting reduced quality in trade for a 5% or 10% drop in costs.

                  You are not going to get German engineering at Vietnamese labor costs. It's just not going to happen.

                  I've gone though my cheap-tool phase, buying import crap because it was all I could afford. It often did the job, but just as often, not much more. I'm now actively trying to shift over to quality American and name-brand Japanese tools, but even here, I'm having to shop carefully and buy used because I can't afford new.

                  Don't blame the Chinese. We asked for cheap crap, and we were only willing to pay for cheap crap, so that's what they sold us.

                  Doc.
                  Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Doc Nickel
                    -Can you show me a single buyer that has voluntarily asked to pay more?
                    I can only thing of one example: the Tormach. Even the ballscrews are ground in China, and from what I've seen, they're pretty nice machines. At $8,000 - $10,000 they're at an affordable price-point for a serious hobbyists. It's amazing how many of them are out there...

                    You are not going to get German engineering at Vietnamese labor costs. It's just not going to happen.
                    Agree whole-heartedly. But then again, you and I enjoy acquiring and rebuilding old iron. That's not everyone's idea of fun
                    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      To tell the truth as a job shop machinist who did lots of machine tool repair. 75% of the machines I had were asian. Komet, hitacchi sekki. Nice machines, and one would love to earn a living with them. Like driving a limo for a job.

                      I love this mauser lathe at a shop in town. You can throw in a 6.5 inch shaft in it and turn 6 feet and hold .+/- .002 on a big ass roughing pass. Its just a great lathe. I made a Dumpster full of chip with it in 4 hours easy.

                      Im not talking cnc , just good old metal eaters that do a god job.

                      So to be honest I have not run many american made machine tools, Even when I worked at a foundry we had bullards. very little American made tools

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Doc Nickel
                        -Can you show me a single buyer that has voluntarily asked to pay more?

                        For many years, we were demanding ever-cheaper prices, and readily accepting reduced quality in trade for a 5% or 10% drop in costs.

                        Don't blame the Chinese. We asked for cheap crap, and we were only willing to pay for cheap crap, so that's what they sold us.

                        Doc.
                        What's up with that "WE", Kemosabe?

                        "I" never asked for cheaper but worser. No, some MBA "suit", probably in Bentonville Arkansas, decided to act "for me", asked for a lot cheaper, and agreed to worse quality.

                        "I" had no choice in the matter, for any product, consumer stuff or whatever. I never have wanted cheap tools , so that part does not apply.

                        As for the customer asking to pay more, that would be ME, in my last job....

                        I had to evaluate chinese versions of our products (yes that aspect of the job sucked bigtime)..... supposedly made to our spec, just as we had made them for years.

                        The chinese sent a lowball price to the purchasing department, and a POS for evaluation. At least 25 points of non-conformity, several of them serious and functional in one case I recall.

                        When we listed the points, they said "oh, will cost more to do that, can't you use like it is?"

                        We said "no, what will it cost to do exactly what we ask?". It was NOT that much more........ But in reality, we STILL had problems with non-conforming parts, despite being perfectly willing to pay more to get it right.

                        The "cheap" mentality is so ingrained that it is very difficult to get past it when dealing with the chinese contract manufacturers.
                        1601

                        Keep eye on ball.
                        Hashim Khan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lazlo
                          People keep saying that, but I've never seen a single instance of a Chinese tool that has gotten better over time. .
                          agreed, China's a different culture and system than Japan. The Japanese took western stuff, reversed engineered it and set out to build brands. They made stuff cheaper but also better because all the way along they were direct stakeholders in the brand and became wealthy through that brand equity. To most individual firms in china, they're not stakeholders in the brand; the end consumer couldn't tell you the company that made it.

                          It's also a manufacturing environment and culture were you do what you are told. Unlike Japan which bootstrapped itself and created its own firms and brands, China was invaded by western firms looking for cheap manufacturing. The role the played was subsidizing our standard of living; not building their own products, brands and companies. They did what they were told. build to plan and have someone show how they want it done.

                          That they can produce the electronics they do for example leaves little doubt that quality products can come from there, but only if there is know how driving the bus. In time I suppose they'll develop there own but the culture works against it with not wanting to standout or break rank. You have to show them exactly what you want them to do and lead them.

                          On the current machines, fit can be worked around and fixed, albeit that requires some skill. Vises that break in two are a pita, but hey that's what duct tape is for. The real thing i wonder about though is bearings. You know what high quality bearings cost for a mill or lathe - what goes into these machines? i advocate old iron if possible....and I do not buy that the home shop guy needs any less performance (but with a lower duty cycle) than light industrial.....the proof is the type of machines most of the experienced guys seem to end up with
                          .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mcgyver
                            I do not buy that the home shop guy needs any less performance (but with a lower duty cycle) than light industrial.....the proof is the type of machines most of the experienced guys seem to end up with
                            The best machinist I personally know, has a new Jet B-P clone and larger Jet lathe. he gets very good performance from them in his home based commercial shop.

                            The business about chinese culture is true.... The hardest thing to find is true initiative. Most initiative seems to come from business owners, never from underlings.
                            Last edited by J Tiers; 03-07-2009, 03:16 AM.
                            1601

                            Keep eye on ball.
                            Hashim Khan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lane
                              But wonder about my Taiwanese Acer Sold under the Acer name has the name Andies painted on the control plate on front and the parts book has another name . If I need any thing have no idea where to even look for parts. If I could not make it my self.
                              Lane,
                              I wouldn't be too worried about getting parts. I have a Well Setting mill, says Birmingham under one of the name plates and came with a Birmingham manual, that I have had no problem getting parts for. It is a 1989 vintage and in the 20 years I have owned it I have accidentally broke a couple of items. I was setting a part in the vise with dead blow, hit the power down feed lever and broke it off. I called my local machinery dealer and had one a couple days later. I wore the quill lock lever splines off by not engaging it all the way and same deal no problems getting a new one and the new one was stronger and longer. The only other item was the electrical switch broke and again no problems getting a new one. I also ordered a new drive belt.

                              My other mill is the larger 10" X 50" table size Taiwan import. I wanted to change the VS pulleys, no problem getting them, they had bronze bushings instead of plastic and were way cheaper than real Bridgeport pulleys. They have been in the machine for 4 years and are still quiet.
                              Last edited by Mark Hockett; 03-07-2009, 05:43 AM.
                              Mark Hockett

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