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  • #31
    Take, for instance, Melamine, we could have imported it directly and put in our pet food by ourselves, instead of paying the Chinese to do that.
    The US makes and sells melamine as an animal feed additive. It's for export only.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Evan
      The US makes and sells melamine as an animal feed additive. It's for export only.
      Chinese dairy giant recalls milk powder after baby death
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/12/china

      Batch of formula tainted with melamine discovered after hospitals report 59 cases of kidney stones in infants.

      Why was melamine added into milk and powdered infant formula?

      In China, where adulteration has occurred, water has been added to raw milk to increase its volume. As a result of this dilution the milk has a lower protein concentration. Companies using the milk for further production (e.g. of powdered infant formula) normally check the protein level through a test measuring nitrogen content. The addition of melamine increases the nitrogen content of the milk and therefore its apparent protein content.

      Addition of melamine into food is not approved by the FAO/WHO Codex Alimentarius (food standard commission), or by any national authorities.

      http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...ine/index.html
      "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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      • #33
        Filler in Animal Feed Is Open Secret in China
        http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/bu...ss/30food.html



        ZHANGQIU, China, April 28 — As American food safety regulators head to China to investigate how a chemical made from coal found its way into pet food that killed dogs and cats in the United States, workers in this heavily polluted northern city openly admit that the substance is routinely added to animal feed as a fake protein.

        The Shandong Mingshui Great Chemical Company makes a chemical called melamine and sometimes sells melamine scrap to other producers who use it to make animal feed.

        For years, producers of animal feed all over China have secretly supplemented their feed with the substance, called melamine, a cheap additive that looks like protein in tests, even though it does not provide any nutritional benefits, according to melamine scrap traders and agricultural workers here.

        Here at the Shandong Mingshui Great Chemical Group factory, huge boiler vats are turning coal into melamine, which is then used to create plastics and fertilizer. But the leftover melamine scrap, golf ball-size chunks of white rock, is sometimes being sold to local agricultural entrepreneurs, who say they mix a powdered form of the scrap into animal feed to deceive those who raise animals into thinking they are buying feed that is high in protein.

        In recent years, for instance, China’s food safety scandals have involved everything from fake baby milk formulas and soy sauce made from human hair to instances where cuttlefish were soaked in calligraphy ink to improve their color and eels were fed contraceptive pills to make them grow long and slim.
        "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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        • #34
          Remember that it is devilishly hard to get a manufacturing plant (like a foundry) zoned in the US. The green zealots will work for years to stop you. The most powerful force in the US is a lawyer who works for cheap.

          Every time a plant closes, it is gone forever. And competition against the 3rd world doesn't involve a level playing field. They have no environmental standards, no green lawyers, no OSHA, etc.

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          • #35
            Melamine is used around the world as a food supplement for animals, especially cattle. There are a number of US patents on it specifically for that purpose.

            RUMINANT FEED COMPOSITION United States Patent 3653909

            It used to be legal in the US until fairly recently and was still being practised in the making of fish feed until 2007.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/business/31food.html

            Melamine isn't particularly toxic. It isn't controlled, it has no enviromental effects (doesn't kill fish or insects), the LD50 for rats is around 3 to 4 GRAMS per kilo. There are no whimis requirements, no labelling requirements and no transportation requirements. You don't need a license to make, buy or sell it. The breakdown products are non toxic and it isn't listed as a poison or bad actor chemical. Melamine is a non issue except if fed in large quantities over a long period of time to infants as it will cause liver and kidney problems eventually.

            The hype over melamine is nothing more that that. Hyperbolic statements with no basis in science.
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            • #36
              Originally posted by Tony Ennis
              competition against the 3rd world doesn't involve a level playing field. They have no environmental standards, no green lawyers, no OSHA, etc.
              There was an sickening episode in last week's 60 Minutes about the billion dollar black market trading in computer electronics recycling to China.

              Basically, Western countries are shipping millions of tons of industrial waste to Guiyi, China, where peasants (including children) wallow in appalling conditions hand-melting components off old circuit boards over a wood fire, breaking open CRT tubes with hammers, and separating precious metals from hand-crushed slurry by stiring a toxic witch's brew over a wood fired cauldron. The waste is dumped directly into a river which is used for washing, bathing and drinking water.

              Guiyi is basically a vast toxic dump several miles in diameter, saturated with heavy metals, pvcs, et al.

              Not a business we want to be competitive in...

              As 60 Minutes was filming, a mixture of the Tong (Chinese Mafia) and local government officials physically attacked the 60 Minutes crew.

              You can watch excerpts here:

              http://gizmodo.com/5079133/60-minute...-gets-attacked
              Last edited by lazlo; 11-01-2009, 05:52 PM.
              "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Evan
                Oh, I knew that Snap on made stuff in China, thats why I specifically asked about the ones I bought.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Evan
                  Originally posted by New York Times
                  Addition of melamine into food is not approved by the FAO/WHO Codex Alimentarius (food standard commission), or by any national authorities.
                  It used to be legal in the US until fairly recently and was still being practised in the making of fish feed until 2007.

                  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/business/31food.html
                  Evan, that's a hilarious article!

                  It confirms that addition of melamine into food or animal feed is illegal. The article is about a sting operation catching a Canadian company, Tembec BTLSR, with a factory in Toledo, Ohio doing the same thing the Chinese were: stretching the supply by spiking the nitrogen content on the chemical assay used for quality assurance with melamine


                  "Yesterday, federal officials announced that a manufacturing plant in Ohio was using the same banned substance, melamine, to make binding agents that ended up in feed for farmed fish, shrimp and livestock.

                  The problem surfaced after a distributor, concerned about what was in its feed binders after the reports from China, sent the product to a private laboratory for testing.

                  The melamine was used by Tembec BTLSR, a Canadian forest products company with a small chemical plant in Toledo, to make binding agents that keep pellets of animal feed together, said Dr. David Acheson, assistant commissioner for food protection at the Food and Drug Administration.

                  Melamine is not permitted in food or pet food products. In the last few months, pet food contaminated with melamine, all traced back to China, sickened or killed thousands of pets in the United States.

                  The investigation began on May 18 when Uniscope alerted the agency that it had discovered melamine in the testing. Dr. Acheson said that the investigation was in its early stages and that some questions remained unanswered, like how long Tembec had used melamine in its products and the extent of the contamination.

                  “What Tembec knew, didn’t know, what their activities were, is part of the investigation,” Dr. Acheson said, at a news conference. Earlier, he said, “It’s hard to believe that a manufacturer of pet food would not know about this.”
                  Last edited by lazlo; 11-01-2009, 06:01 PM.
                  "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

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                  • #39
                    Of course it's illegal, in the US. You can't blame something for a problem and then not be seen to do something about it.
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                    • #40
                      We ought to be looking at it from a different angle.

                      What can you make out of a lawyer ?

                      .
                      .

                      Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



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                      • #41
                        Landfill? A breakwater? Fertilizer?
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by John Stevenson
                          We ought to be looking at it from a different angle.

                          What can you make out of a lawyer ?

                          .

                          A politician.

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                          • #43
                            Why I don't Buy Chinese...

                            There are several reasons I don't buy Chinese products:

                            1) China does not enforce intellectual property rights laws to the same extent that Western countries do. The result is that counterfeiting is common, and the designs that some honest engineer (often an American) has worked on get stolen.
                            2) China does not have the same environmental standards that most developed countries have, so they can produce more cheaply than those of us burdened with emissions regulations.
                            3) China does not have the same stringent worker safety laws (i.e., OSHA) that Western countries do, so they sacrifice worker health for lwo cost production.
                            4) It is wasteful to ship disposable products half way around the world, both in terms of the energy required to ship and the wasted energy in remanufacturing disposable junk.

                            In my mind, it is hypocritical for us as Americans to say that worker safety, environmental performance, and intellectual property are of great importance, and then turn our backs on all of these ideals just to buy something from China because it's cheaper.

                            If it is made in China, I just say "No thanks."

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                            • #44
                              ALL the shop classes around here are gone. the community colleges have cleared out shop areas to put in 'web design" classrooms, etc.

                              There is a concerted and rather inconsistent desire on the part of the enviro-nazis to "let others have the mess", and do NO manufacturing here. I don't know where they expect to get the money to buy stuff from others with.

                              As for trade wars etc, you get LITERAL trade wars, with shooting, when the trade imbalance becomes so one-sided.

                              the chinese trade is an example. The chinese deliberately pegged the yuan so that it would ALWAYS be cheap to buy from china. this was a government policy, designed to do what it did, which is suck the industry out of other countries, but especially the US.

                              Once the damage is done, they allowed it to float a bit, but not so far as to endanger their one-sided trade.

                              One-sided trade is not sustainable, and when it is created in a way calculated to destroy another country, as in the case of china and the US, it is a literal war, not economics. Which is worse, a tariff trade war creating a bad economy, or the existing trade war creating a bad economy AND a strategic problem?

                              Originally posted by Evan
                              Of course it's illegal, in the US. You can't blame something for a problem and then not be seen to do something about it.
                              I am completely not understanding why you are DEFENDING a practice which is essentially a cheat. It is completely obvious to any thinking person that adding a non-nutritive substance to food for the purpose of cheating the quality tests is only manufacturing a counterfeit.

                              So you think food should be counterfeited? This is good how?

                              Perhaps some of the fake antibiotics and other medicines which are also made in china should be imported to Canada so that you and yours can take them and stay sick?

                              What are people THINKING?

                              The idea is bad no matter WHAT flag is on the pole out front.

                              However, besides melamine, and poisonous cough syrup, poisonous toothpaste, fake antibiotics, chinese companies also are known to water down milk and do other lovely things as well, not to mention considering worker lives cheap and safety expensive, and polluting the landscape like crazy..

                              Now, much the same sort of things were done right here in the USA, 130 years ago during the time when industry was rising, and there were no laws against doing that. Morphine was widely available, and who needed crack when popular drinks had cocaine in them?

                              I notice that changed since.

                              Coincidentally, china has no particularly well enforced laws on that sort of thing,perhaps china should consider a change also.
                              1601

                              Keep eye on ball.
                              Hashim Khan

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by wierdscience
                                What's a shame is if you had wanted to tour the offices of law firms,insurance providers,and government you wouldn't had to even leave home since they are so plentiful.

                                There was a war between the productive class and the un-productive class and the un-productive won.
                                That is the quote of the Day!!Couldn't agree more. Consumers can turn it around, but it will be tough. Innovation is the only solution IMHO, and that is a Global race now.

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