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  • #46
    Consumers can turn it around, but it will be tough. Innovation is the only solution IMHO, and that is a Global race now.
    Um, turn WHAT around? The ratchet wheel has clicked. There is no going backwards. Heavy industry and manufacturing is leaving the US and won't return until it is cheaper to build it here.

    I feel this was inevitable. Greed and foolishness have made the process nearly immediate causing dramatic upheaval. Wise governance would have make it a multi-generational event allowing time for people to adjust.

    Comment


    • #47
      I'm not sure it is that way, quite yet. Shipping costs really turned around some businesses, when it started costing 9 grand to move a container from china to US.

      With cheap oil again, that probably has swung back.

      After carbon caps, it will definitely be that way, since the chinese won't accept any carbon caps that might threaten them. They will have a lock on ALL industry, by international treaty. I kinda have to figure that was the plan all along.

      As a 'developing country" (what a &^%$# laugh THAT is) they are somewhat exempt anyway......
      1601

      Keep eye on ball.
      Hashim Khan

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by John Stevenson
        We ought to be looking at it from a different angle.

        What can you make out of a lawyer ?

        .
        Please specify...do you mean a barrister or a solicitor?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitor

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        • #49
          I am completely not understanding why you are DEFENDING a practise which is essentially a cheat. It is completely obvious to any thinking person that adding a non-nutritive substance to food for the purpose of cheating the quality tests is only manufacturing a counterfeit.
          I am not defending the practise of adding it to food. How did you get that idea? It is used as a feed supplement for cattle and other animals because it is a cheap source of nitrogen used to synthesize protein. It isn't cheating. It doesn't harm the animal and it helps them gain weight faster. My main point is that it isn't toxic and by itself didn't kill any pets. It's another case of pointing the finger at China in an effort to justify trade sanctions that would otherwise be against the WTO agreements to which the US is a party as well as China since they joined.

          It has nothing to do with supporting China as Robert tries to accuse me of. It's about the US and it's trade practises. The US only follows through on it's international agreements when the outcome is entirely favourable to itself. Any time that those agreements are seen to benefit some other country the US reneges on it's obligations. This is a result of government policy that has been dictated by big business. I am very unhappy with how this institutionalized corruption of the democratic process in the USA has affected us here in Williams Lake in general and me and my wife directly.

          US political corruption has cost us personally tens of thousands of dollars over the last decade or so, perhaps much more. The Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports in the US is an illegal consortium of companies that effectively tells the Commerce Dept what to do. This is no exaggeration. Over the last decade the US collected duties to the tune of around 5 to 6 billion dollars which was not put in the public general fund. It was collected to be paid directly to the companies that had lobbied the politicians to collect the duties. The duties were repeatedly found to be unjustified in law according to US LAWS as well as being in direct contravention of US agreement on tariff and trade and provisions of the NAFTA treaties to which the US is a party.

          The USA eventually exhausted all avenues of appeal while they continued to collect the illegal duties. They then negotiated a deal to repay only some of that money and decided unilaterally to keep 1 billion regardless of the agreements it made. In fact, to this date as far as I know none of that money has been returned.

          The US is a poor trading partner and cannot be relied on to uphold any agreements it signs. This is not a reflection on the character of the American people, it's a direct result of a corrupt system of government.

          I will point out strongly that this is not just my view on these matters. It is widely held viewpoint of everybody here that has any sort of stake in bilateral trade with the United States. The US is seen as a snake in the grass when it comes to matter of trade.

          In case anybody on this forum thinks they can justify the US position in these matters I can provide case after case and point after point both in legal decisions by the US courts themselves and various international bodies that directly indict the US trade practises as well as documented examples of actions taken based on fabricated pretences similar to the melamine and the Chinese drywall scams.

          The worst of it is that these actions by a few wealthy elite in the United States have not only directly hurt people here but are also directly responsible in part for the enormous economic collapse in the housing market in the US and the loss of hundreds of thousands of US and Canadian jobs.
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          • #50
            From what I can find, Schedule IV and Schedule V of the Canadian Feeds Regulations list ingredients that are approved for use in livestock feeds.
            Melamine isn't on that list but I have seen reference to it being used as a non-protein nitrogen source. This was known back in 1958, but a study in 1978 was done at the University of Georgia College of Agriculture. In conclusion they said: "Under the conditions of these trials, melamine may not be hydrolized in the rumen at a rate sufficient to promote maximum ruminal protein synthesis and incompletely hydrolized fractions may be absorbed and voided in the urine. These observations would tend to indicate that melamine may not be an acceptable NPN source for ruminants."
            In other words, it didn't work as well as other products worked. HERE is the synopsis

            "Schedule IV and V of the Feeds Regulations list feed ingredients approved for use in livestock feed in Canada. Schedule IV comprises a range of ingredients such as forages and roughages, energy feeds, protein sources, vitamins, minerals, fermentation products and other miscellaneous products while Schedule V is restricted to flavouring ingredients. Each Schedule is divided into two parts:

            Schedule IV part 1 and Schedule V part 1 list ingredients that do not require registration if they meet regulatory safety and labelling standards.

            Schedule IV part 2 and Schedule V part 2 list ingredients that must be registered due to safety and/or efficacy concerns."

            Schedule IV and Schedule V are here

            Another website says "In Canada melamine is not allowed to be added into any human or animal foods."
            Apparently Melamine isn't allowed in Canada as a livestock feed and it doesn't appear useful as a dietary non protein nitrogen feed supplement. However, it has been used as a binding agent to keep pellets of animal feed together. Story here
            Last edited by Arcane; 11-02-2009, 05:36 AM.
            Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

            Comment


            • #51
              Hmm. I am not sure what is the point is of your post but one thing that the study on the effectiveness of melamine left out was the cost effectiveness. While it may be inferior to cottonseed meal or urea it is much cheaper as a process residual. That is why it is used still in many countries.

              Urea is allowed in the US and Canada as a feed supplement. Melamine is merely dehydrated urea. Urea is the cause of gout in humans as it crystalizes at temperatures just below normal body temperature. These crystals damage the tissues in the joints of the extremeties such as feet and hands. This action is identical to the crystalization of melamine and for good reason since too much urea in a diet will cause similar consequences. This is a common cause of urinary problems in cats.
              Last edited by Evan; 11-02-2009, 06:39 AM.
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              • #52
                since the chinese won't accept any carbon caps that might threaten them.
                I believe India was also excluded from the worst of Kyoto.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Evan
                  Originally posted by New York Times
                  Addition of melamine into food is not approved by the FAO/WHO Codex Alimentarius (food standard commission), or by any national authorities.
                  I am not defending the practise of adding it to food. How did you get that idea? It is used as a feed supplement for cattle and other animals because it is a cheap source of nitrogen used to synthesize protein. It isn't cheating.
                  As I've posted several times, Melamine is a banned substance in food or feed in all national authorities, including China.

                  You keep quoting the 1958 melamine patent in the Wikpedia entry for melamine, but you conveniently leave out the conclusion:
                  "Surplus melamine has been an adulterant for feedstock and milk in mainland China for several years now because it can make diluted or poor quality material appear to be higher in protein content by elevating the total nitrogen content detected by some simple protein tests. Actions taken in 2008 by the Government of China has reduced the practice of adulteration, with the goal of eliminating it. Court trials began in December 2008 for six people linked to the scandal and ended in January 2009 with two of the convicts being sentenced to death."


                  Toxicity

                  Melamine is described as being "Harmful if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through the skin. Chronic exposure may cause cancer or reproductive damage. Eye, skin and respiratory irritant.”

                  U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) scientists explained that when melamine and cyanuric acid are absorbed into the bloodstream, they concentrate and interact in the urine-filled renal microtubules, then crystallize and form large numbers of round, yellow crystals, which in turn block and damage the renal cells that line the tubes, causing the kidneys to malfunction.


                  Not surprisingly, kidney stones are what killed the Chinese infants with the melamine-spiked baby formula, and the tens of thousands of pets worldwide in the melamine-spiked pet food.

                  Originally posted by Evan
                  It has nothing to do with supporting China as Robert tries to accuse me of.
                  And yet you irrationally refuse to admit the China babies that died from melamine poisoning (even though that was the Communist Government's conclusion), in addition to tens of thousands of pets. You vehemently defend China's intense Internet censorship, and claim that public execution of bloggers and protesters are a rare occurrence. And then, of course, there's the Chinese drywall.

                  You should just move over there Evan -- you'll be a lot happier there
                  Last edited by lazlo; 11-02-2009, 09:32 AM.
                  "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    You keep quoting the 1958 melamine patent in the Wikpedia entry for melamine, but you conveniently leave out the conclusion:

                    "Surplus melamine has been an adulterant for feedstock and milk in mainland China for several years now because it can make diluted or poor quality material appear to be higher in protein content by elevating the total nitrogen content detected by some simple protein tests. Actions taken in 2008 by the Government of China has reduced the practice of adulteration, with the goal of eliminating it. Court trials began in December 2008 for six people linked to the scandal and ended in January 2009 with two of the convicts being sentenced to death."
                    Huh? I haven't quoted any patent. Nor do I use Wikepedia as a source of information, unlike you. It can't be trusted.

                    And yet you irrationally refuse to admit the China babies that died from melamine poisoning (even though that was the Communist Government's conclusion), in addition to tens of thousands of pets. You vehemently defend China's intense Internet censorship, and claim that public execution of bloggers and protesters are a rare occurrence. And then, of course, there's the Chinese drywall.
                    You are a pathological liar.
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                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Evan
                      Huh? I haven't quoted any patent. Nor do I use Wikepedia as a source of information, unlike you. It can't be trusted.

                      You are a pathological liar.


                      http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...7&postcount=35
                      Originally posted by Evan
                      Melamine is used around the world as a food supplement for animals, especially cattle. There are a number of US patents on it specifically for that purpose.

                      RUMINANT FEED COMPOSITION United States Patent 3653909
                      Which, of course, is from:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine

                      "Melamine use as non-protein nitrogen (NPN) for cattle was described in a 1958 patent."
                      "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Which, of course, is from:

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine
                        No it isn't. You didn't look it up. The patent number I quoted is a corporate patent from 1972 owned by Allied Chemical Corp. I don't use Wikipedia. I found it at the USPTO.

                        You are once again destroying your own credibility.

                        Further:

                        Melamine (1,3,5-triazine-2,4,6-triamine) is a very useful organic trimer of cyanide, with the formula C3H6N6. It is used in the resins of many glues, plastics, as a plastic pigment and in some inks. It is relatively non-toxic (with a similar lethal dose as table salt), and was for a time considered as a nitrogen supplement for livestock. Waste melamine is still given to livestock in some areas, a practice which sparked a media frenzy in the United States over melamine contamination of human food supplies and animal fodder. As a result, interest in melamine testing procedures and equipment has skyrocketed in recent months.

                        The FDA has never judged melamine contamination to be particularly dangerous, as the substance is very non-toxic. Nevertheless, there are testing and quality control requirements placed on all foods in the United States, and as melamine is considered a toxin, these apply to melamine contamination too. There has been some speculation that the 2007 scare was a largely political affair, and that the threat of melamine contamination has been immensely over stated.

                        According to industry insiders, it is likely that ongoing FDA melamine testing will show that contamination is more widespread than was previously known, and about as harmless as previously thought. No human has become ill as a result of the 2007 melamine contamination. Acute melamine poisoning can result in kidney and reproductive failure.

                        https://www.midwestlabs.com/store/home.php
                        http://ezinearticles.com/?Melamine-T...tay?&id=591102
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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Evan
                          As usual, you Google an obscure link that disagrees with your point:

                          "Interest in melamine testing has skyrocketed with the recent scares in the United States after pork and chicken were given contaminated feed imported from China, which was in turn consumed by pets and humans. The levels of melamine and the waste chemicals it is often associated with were so extreme that some estimates put the number of domestic family pet deaths over 1000, with many more casualties. With unprecedented scrutiny on this toxin in food sources, producers would be well-advised to contract the services of a drug testing laboratory or veterinary hospital if operators have any doubts at all."

                          So are you still denying that melamine was the cause of the Chinese infant deaths, and the thousands of pet deaths, even though it is WHO and the Chinese government's official cause?

                          Do you agree that melamine is a banned food substance by all national authorities, including China?
                          "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Evan
                            I am not defending the practise of adding it to food. How did you get that idea? It is used as a feed supplement for cattle and other animals because it is a cheap source of nitrogen used to synthesize protein. It isn't cheating. It doesn't harm the animal and it helps them gain weight faster. My main point is that it isn't toxic and by itself didn't kill any pets. It's another case of pointing the finger at China in an effort to justify trade sanctions that would otherwise be against the WTO agreements to which the US is a party as well as China since they joined.
                            if there is a non-nutritive substance which is ONLY added to food to raise the apparent (but not real) protein content, it is a cheat. a counterfeit. pretty much the same thing as watered milk with white pigment added, or fake cancer drugs, fake antibiotics, etc.

                            As for your defense of china, I don't seem to be the only one who gets that impression from your postings. I suggest that if youy don't INTEND to be entirely one-sided, that perhaps you should not make your posts appear entirely one-sided.

                            The problem with the WTO is that it assumes that every country is acting the same way, honorably. Of course this is not true. Some countries, and china is the major one, have no intention of bringing their laws up to international standards regard ing intellectual property, etc, until they have achieved their goals. Like many other devious countries, they stall and talk, then do not act, then talk and stall over minor points, block this, stall that, and talk and stall, meanwhile getting to the point they want to arrive at anyway.

                            once there, it is already done, a moot point, and there is nothing to be done about it by more talk. That was the goal, and it is so easy to accomplish with organizations whose "teeth" do not apply to you.

                            The UN, and the WTO are, in the US, widely and to a great extent correctly, seen as complicit in this.

                            Both will, talk forever, and as long as "both sides are talking" absolutely nothing will be done. Not that china would ACCEPT a sanction of penalty.... Why should they? They have the upper hand to a considerable extent, and don't need to pay the slightest attention, beyond more talking and stalling and talking and stalling.

                            The result of this is that at present, if you do not have an operation in china, you are not in business, and nobody will pay any attention to you as far as mass production.

                            And the chinese will take your product, copy it to the last detail, including the logo and internal details, and sell it. Don't even TRY to tell me that doesn't happen, I have seen the product of my former employer copied totally, and sold in china and all over Asia as ours.... WE could tell it was not ours, but proving that in court might have been a tough job. it was not a good copy, the product didn't get tested well, and our reputation was trash in Asia after that started. We couldn't sell a product over there at all, but we had sold millions of dollars of product before that.

                            So, Evan, it is KNOWN that the chinese, with the tacit, winking complicity of at least local government, copy, adulterate food, make fake medicine, etc. Not ALL chinese, but china is a hotbed of that activity.

                            As for pet food, same for drywall, etc. Some chinese products have had certain effects that other products made here or even in china, did not.

                            it isn't really a direct issue to demand proof of the exact and detailed mechanism in each and every case, and to say there is NO PROBLEM until the exact cause is found..

                            "Drink this and you will die", as an empirically proven result, does NOT require "proof". I will leave that to you. YOU may say it is perfectly safe until the mechanism is proven. Go ahead and drink anyway. Others will take over for you when you are gone.

                            No, we don't have such problems in any noticeable quantity with German, British, Brazilian, Namibian, or Mexican products. We have these problems predominately with CHINESE products

                            Why would a supposedly rational being even wonder why chinese products are viewed with a jaundiced eye?
                            1601

                            Keep eye on ball.
                            Hashim Khan

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              As usual, you Google an obscure link that disagrees with your point:
                              Hardly. That is a testing lab with a vested interest in testing for melamine yet they still describe it as no more toxic than table salt.

                              So are you still denying that melamine was the cause of the Chinese infant deaths, and the thousands of pet deaths, even though it is WHO and the Chinese government's official cause?
                              I haven't said anything about the Chinese formula contamination. You have. repeatedly, even though it has nothing to do with the topic of cattle feed or pet food. You cannot feed infants most foods and a very wide variety of ordinary foods and additives are toxic to infants.

                              As for pet deaths, melamine alone does not kill pets. That has been well established. The reason for that is that it is essentially non toxic.

                              Do you agree that melamine is a banned food substance by all national authorities, including China?
                              It is now. I haven't said anything about using it in human food. You have.

                              I repeat, you are a pathological liar.
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                              • #60
                                As for your defense of china, I don't seem to be the only one who gets that impression from your postings. I suggest that if youy don't INTEND to be entirely one-sided, that perhaps you should not make your posts appear entirely one-sided.
                                Try to find a quote from what I have written where I defend China.
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