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  • #76
    Originally posted by ckelloug
    ....The Chinese own the U.S. at this point due to the huge national debt and the current budget deficit. If the U.S. were to try to impose any sort of restrictions on China that they didn't approve, China would simply stop buying treasury securities and our economy would be finished. ..
    --Cameron

    Hey this tactic ain't new, it been done before ... you should have seen it comin'

    see 1947

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    • #77
      Originally posted by goose
      Your points are good and valid (except for the "anybody can become a millionaire if they work hard enough" part)

      Corruption is rampant
      All the millionaires/billionaires are Communist Party Officials (or family members).

      As Deng Xiaoping famously said, "Let some people get rich first". Sucks if you're a peasant.
      "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

      Comment


      • #78
        Your points are good and valid (except for the "anybody can become a millionaire if they work hard enough" part)
        The "become a millionaire" expression isn't of my making. It's the essential part of the "American Dream", a concept that was put in writing by F. Scott Fitzgerald in "The Great Gatsby".

        "Anybody can become a millionaire through courage, determination and hard work."


        All the millionaires/billionaires are Communist Party Officials (or family members).
        References?
        Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

        Comment


        • #79
          Evan:
          The economic policies of the central government have been exceptionally successful and have been a source of embarrassment to free market economists.

          Not so fast. A government that doesn't have to obey its own laws, that has no political opposition/watchdogs, that doesn't value human life, that rapes the environment unlike any other, and that sets monetary policy based upon what gives it the most advantage can do amazing things.

          In short, so what.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Evan
            Try to find a quote from what I have written where I defend China.
            Its the overall tone and defiant stance that (as far as we can tell by reading your postings) there is nothing wrong with chinese anything until the exact and detailed mechanism of the alleged problem with the material has been exhaustively researched, completely explained, and proven to be the exact and detailed problem in each individual separate case.

            YOU are not satisfied with the association of problems exclusively with THAT drywall, or THAT cough syrup, or THAT toothpaste, or THAT pet food.

            Oh, no, to satisfy the stalling tactics of Mahmoud AbedinijEvan, the material must be regarded as perfect, totally without faults, and must continue to be used as fast as possible, until the problem with each separate tube, bottle, sheet or whatever has been submitted in quintuplicate to representatives of Mr AbedinijEvan.

            bah..... I'll prove nothing..... don't even ask. We can all SEE which way the wind blows, by watching the bamboo.

            As for China and its trading "partners"...... The US has been a large consumer market for a long time.

            Whether that will be true in future is not at all the point. What IS the point is that china, aided and abetted by certain US corporations, notably Walmart, became THE source of US consumer goods, displacing the US domestic industry, Japanese industry, taiwan industry, Mexican industry, and Korean industry.

            Nobody seriously contemplates making anything in volume production for the consumer market in the US now. It would just be pouring money down the drain.

            If it is made here, or even in Mexico, Walmart will indignantly REFUSE to buy it, Target may not buy it, Kmart probably won't buy it. After that, you really are hurting, because all that is left are regional chains that are being killed off by Walmart.

            In the process a great deal of strategic harm has been caused. And a large number of peripheral industry has been destroyed.

            The good points are that china was able to use the US to GET TO the position you others have stated they now have. The US and to a reasonable extent europe, although protectionist buying is still rampant in much of europe. The great unwashed here sees only lower prices, and shiny gew-gaws..... The proles couldn't find china on a map of the world. I know supposedly educated people who can't.

            China may not be interested now, but when we stopped buying, the chinese started getting laid off in droves. That suggests a slightly more direct relationship than some attempt to put forth, even when the ripple effect of related economic issues elsewhere are factored in..

            It is likely that as a stability measure, the internal market and other markets will be emphasized. Who wouldn't? The chinese were in a position where they wanted foreign exchange, and they got it from us. Sure, now they have it, they don't need any individual market so much.

            But they GOT where they are, by selling to the US, and somewhat to europe.
            Last edited by J Tiers; 11-02-2009, 09:41 PM.
            1601

            Keep eye on ball.
            Hashim Khan

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Evan
              References?
              http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...5&postcount=45
              Originally posted by lazlo
              Almost all of the Chinese billionaires are Communist Party Officials, and/or National People’s Congress delegates (China’s rubber-stamp parliament).
              The first Chinese billionaire was “Red capitalist” Rong Yiren, the former China vice-president. His son "Larry" is also a billionaire -- the 6th wealthiest man in China.

              The few billionaires who aren't party officials, are from eminent communist party families. Diana Chen, who founded the Pioneer Iron and Metals group (the largest ore company in China) is the granddaughter of Lu Dong, China’s metallurgy minister.
              Originally posted by lazlo
              Lu Guanqiu, the CEO of Wanxiang Group, who recently bought Ford's driveline division.

              The Chinese government likes to portray him as a peasant worker who worked his way up to riches, but he was a delegate (a member of Parliament) to the 9th, 13th and 14th CPC National People's Congresses
              "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Tony Ennis
                Evan:


                Not so fast. A government that................. rapes the environment unlike any other,......................
                Wait, don't bring Russia into this......... The chinese can't hold a candle to Russia in pure evil pollution. They produce a lot of volume, but Russia produced really, really bad stuff.
                1601

                Keep eye on ball.
                Hashim Khan

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally Posted by Evan
                  References?


                  http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...5&postcount=45

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by lazlo
                  Almost all of the Chinese billionaires are Communist Party Officials, and/or National People’s Congress delegates (China’s rubber-stamp parliament).
                  The first Chinese billionaire was “Red capitalist” Rong Yiren, the former China vice-president. His son "Larry" is also a billionaire -- the 6th wealthiest man in China.

                  The few billionaires who aren't party officials, are from eminent communist party families. Diana Chen, who founded the Pioneer Iron and Metals group (the largest ore company in China) is the granddaughter of Lu Dong, China’s metallurgy minister.



                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by lazlo
                  Lu Guanqiu, the CEO of Wanxiang Group, who recently bought Ford's driveline division.

                  The Chinese government likes to portray him as a peasant worker who worked his way up to riches, but he was a delegate (a member of Parliament) to the 9th, 13th and 14th CPC National People's Congresses
                  You are giving YOURSELF as a reference? That really rich. I can't believe you just did that.

                  On top of that it wasn't just billionaires that you referred to. it was

                  Originally posted by Robert
                  All the millionaires/billionaires are Communist Party Officials (or family members).
                  Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Tony
                    Its the overall tone and defiant stance that (as far as we can tell by reading your postings) there is nothing wrong with chinese anything until the exact and detailed mechanism of the alleged problem with the material has been exhaustively researched, completely explained, and proven to be the exact and detailed problem in each individual separate case.

                    YOU are not satisfied with the association of problems exclusively with THAT drywall, or THAT cough syrup, or THAT toothpaste, or THAT pet food.

                    Oh, no, to satisfy the stalling tactics of Mahmoud AbedinijEvan, the material must be regarded as perfect, totally without faults, and must continue to be used as fast as possible, until the problem with each separate tube, bottle, sheet or whatever has been submitted in quintuplicate to representatives of Mr AbedinijEvan.

                    bah..... I'll prove nothing..... don't even ask. We can all SEE which way the wind blows, by watching the bamboo.
                    That's a bad mistake you are making. To think that because I am not sympathetic to your ideas in no way means that I am sympatheic to the ones you disagree with. It's a very common mistake made by even very intelligent people but nonetheless, it is a mistake.

                    When I support something you won't be in doubt and it won't be by some oblique reference. You should have already figured that out by now.

                    Demanding unambiguous scientific evidence for something that has the potential to affect the lives of entire nations of people isn't unreasonable in my view. It is the only approach that is in keeping with the premise that such actions be based in truth rather than inuenndo and propaganda.
                    Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Not so fast. A government that doesn't have to obey its own laws, that has no political opposition/watchdogs, that doesn't value human life, that rapes the environment unlike any other, and that sets monetary policy based upon what gives it the most advantage can do amazing things.

                      In short, so what.
                      You need to study some history. Specifically US history. I'll supply you some key words: "Love Canal", "Hanford iodine", "nuclear testing", "agent orange", "anti personnel mines", "Cluster bomb failure rate", "nerve agents", "extinct US species", "missing plutonium", "missing nuclear weapons", "napalm", "Kent State", "ground water contamination", "teratogenic pesticides", "dead livestock", "fish kills", "acid rain", "US coal consumption"...
                      Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Evan, don't blame Tony for that, as your quote presently does.

                        it's ME not Tony.

                        I'm not particularly good at reading minds, it only works sometimes...... Your posts looked, and still DO look one-sided on the issue, demanding unreasonable proof, and totally discounting the proven history of bogus, adulterated, and poisoned goods, which makes claims more credible, and the very apparent association of problems with specific companies which happen to be chinese.

                        You have focused on accusing us of blaming" the chinese" when some at least have been at pains to mention that it is specific companies.

                        And you have refused to believe "association" or 'correlation", apparently asserting it has no merit and no meaning.

                        But you are quick to take up the chinese assertions that it is all a plot against china. Quick to "blame America first".

                        I don't know what you think. I only see what you post here. And it certainly seems that you take the position of a "fellow traveler" with the chinese on most matters when you have a choice.

                        perhaps you are not pro-chinese. Maybe you are simply anti-American.
                        1601

                        Keep eye on ball.
                        Hashim Khan

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          But you are quick to take up the chinese assertions that it is all a plot against china. Quick to "blame America first".
                          Huh? That isn't something I am familiar with.

                          perhaps you are not pro-chinese. Maybe you are simply anti-American.
                          That is closer. I am "Anti American Foreign Policy".
                          Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            You need to study some history.
                            Just because we are imperfect doesn't somehow mean it's somehow ok for the Chinese to be dong what they are doing. Everything we do that's bad, the Chinese do worse due to the lack of political opposition. Further, I wasn't commenting on which country is good or bad so much as that China's ascendency isn't surprising at all because their government allows and practices totally unchecked social and economic manipulation.

                            You do come off as being anti-American, by the way, Evan.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Even if it were true it doesn't make me pro Chinese. There is an almost overwhelming tendency here and in most situations to try to characterize things as black/white. It is never that simple.
                              Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I've said it before and elsewhere, but how many of the Chinese products were, at least initially, sold here BY Chinese companies?

                                So far as I know, everything that was imported here, as was everything that was imported from Japan in the 50's, 60's was imported by an AMERICAN importer who saw an advantage.

                                Mitsubishi was a Chrysler import. Iaccoca loved it until Mitsubishi decided to sell their cars directly. Then he cried that they had a 1500 buck advantage. Malcolm Bricklin imported the Honda Civic in the 60's. It took sales from US made cars. BFD. Malcolm made tons of money. All legal.

                                This is nothing new at all. There were World Meets of industrial capability in the 1800's. Krupp Steel sent their best, Sheffield, Birmingham, etc., and the best show got sales from foreign companies. Alfred Krupp was said to have taken out a pocket knife and whittled a sliver from a competitor's entry.

                                We'll never be competitive if all we do is import slum. We were as good as any in the world, better than most, in days long gone. Short sighted managers with bonuses in mind sold all US mfg down the River to make their bonuses.

                                Rebuild the US mfg base? Very little chance. We don't teach enough of our young to DO mechanical things. We all want our kids to be PROFESSIONALS, and it seems that all we have made are professional burger flippers.

                                Don't get me wrong, as to the US young. They can learn to lay block, side houses, lay shingles, work concrete.

                                Given a training program, I think you could train the same who will work with their hands to run any machine you can throw them at. Some of you are proof of this. Problem is, where the hell they gonna work when they become aces at this game?

                                Cheers,

                                George

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