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  • Safe cracker needed

    This seems like it would be easy pickings for a CNC machine:

    http://www.katu.com/news/local/78831142.html

  • #2
    Open it,the safe isn't that valuable.
    I just need one more tool,just one!

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    • #3
      Indeed, I have seen a locksmiths tool for opening a safe made from a servo. It just dials numbers and checks the lever. It must take forever to use. And you would have to know how many numbers were needed for the combination.

      I remember someone telling me that old safes had all sorts of nasty stuff in glass tubes inside the door. If you tried to drill, you broke the glass and let out things such as mustard gas. Stopped many thieves, permanently.

      rock~
      Civil engineers build targets, Mechanical engineers build weapons.

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      • #4
        I think you're right. There's no "timeout" or other limit on how many tries you get with one of those. That would be a very cool project for a microcontroller experimenter guy. Just need to add an "open door lever" widget to pull the arm in-between combinations. It would be helpful to find out how many numbers in the combo and which direction to start with. That's probably something a locksmith could illuminate.

        Build the thing, attach to safe, let 'er rip. Check it every few hours and see if it's open yet. Could program it to play "Super Mario" music while it's working away.
        Might need new bearings by the time it's done.

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        • #5
          Put it in a store window and sell "plays" on line. Hell, it could be a big money maker. Enter your digits on a web page and let the 'bot dial them in.

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          • #6
            I was at an estate sale in Westfield, NJ with my brother in law Don, who was a security guy in the Army at the time. In the basement of the house there was a large safe, in very clean condition in spite of its age, with a $50 price tag on it. Don said "oh a such and such, probably X years old". The person running the sale commented that the price was low because they didn't know the combo, and Don said "let me try". 30 seconds later the safe is open, it was empty. The owner said "great! I can get a lot more now that I know the combo. Don swings the door shut, spins the dial and says "no, you don't" and starts to walk away. The owner begs him, and he confesses that the safe has the makers shipping combo on it, probably never changed, as most people never bothered. People in the business know the shipping combos and try those first. Maybe it would work there.

            Joe

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            • #7
              The device for opening a safe of that type is called a "manipulator". They are slow, but reliable. The invention of "manipulators" caused the US Gov't to dis-allow tens of thousands of safes for the storage of classified documents. Even with the side bolt, or the butterfly center, they were no longer allowed. The FBI and NSA probably have dozens of "manipulators" in a drawer somewhere.
              Manipulators work on the principle that there are 10,000 first number pairs, the next 100 can be bumped from 0 to 99, with a lever or butterfly check between bumps. Many locks have a +-1 tolerance, thus lowering the first pair to 2,500. And the third number possibility to 50. Given a two second time between tests, it will take a maximum of ~24 hours to test all possible combinations.

              I understand there are competitions at locksmith conventions, to test a persons manipulation skills. I am not a locksmith but my best was ~2 1/2 hours for a standard Master padlock, loose, so I could spin the shackle.

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              • #8
                A more sophisticated manipulator will analyze the movement of the handle at each try in order to locate the gates. Finding one or more of the gates will greatly diminish the number of trials.

                If you think about it, each wheel has a notch at every position, but one is deep enough to allow a rod (connected to the lever) to move enough to release the bolts. If you measure the movement of the lever at each position you will find some that are shallower (the lever moves less) than others. Those numbers can be ignored for that wheel.

                Micro-processors have made manipulators much more efficient.

                Dan
                At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dp
                  Put it in a store window and sell "plays" on line. Hell, it could be a big money maker. Enter your digits on a web page and let the 'bot dial them in.
                  I like Your idea Dennis, it seems that a lot of money could be made that way.
                  I wonder if they could weigh the safe to determine if there is a significant difference to an empty one of the same model. Or turn it over and listen to see if there are gold bars clanging or just paper rustling

                  Steve

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                  • #10
                    Local fellow has an old "cannonball" safe- solid cast iron (wrought iron?) fully eight inches thick, closer to ten in places. The door is ten inches thick, but relieved and hollowed a bit so 'only' about the same 8" of actual armor.

                    Very nice old thing, needs some new bushings on the hinges though, as the several-hundred-pound door has worn 'em a bit.

                    What I liked about it, though, was the time lock. The safe was originally emplaced in a local frontier bank- as in, roughly Gold Rush days. So the time lock wouldn't let it open even with the correct combination, until a certain amount of time had passed, up to, if I'm reading these dials right, 72 hours later.



                    Note the date on the dials. That's when the mechanism was made, according to the owner.

                    The clockwork is inset behind glass, and looks perfect. No tarnish, no visible wear. You can see there's no rust on the blued screws.

                    As for that safe in the OP, there's dozens of guys out there that could have that thing open in a few hours. A safe of that vintage is not what you'd call particularly sophisticated. It's probably worth more- from a PR standpoint- to leave it closed, though.

                    Doc.
                    Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Doc,

                      You can tell the owner it refers to US Patent number 479379, dated July 19 1892. Maybe you knew that already.

                      Really pretty mechanism though; that is very nice.. They don't make 'em like they used to.
                      .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just get Richard Feynman over there- he'll have that thing open in no time.
                        I seldom do anything within the scope of logical reason and calculated cost/benefit, etc- I'm following my passion-

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dr. Rob

                          Really pretty mechanism though; that is very nice.. They don't make 'em like they used to.
                          .
                          I keep hoping that with CNC making it possible to turn out cost effective work that someone will start making the equipment visually attractive again. It's just a little more code, no?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I wonder if the safe could be X-rayed. There are portable units that could be brought to the location.

                            I can still see the look on Geraldo Rivera's face when they opened the room in Chicago and found....nothing.

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                            • #15
                              I understand there are competitions at locksmith conventions, to test a persons manipulation skills. I am not a locksmith but my best was ~2 1/2 hours for a standard Master padlock, loose, so I could spin the shackle.
                              When I was a kid I could open those in less than 15 minutes most times. Since then I have developed an even faster technique.














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