Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Closing the loop: Max torque from DC motors - Stone simple

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Closing the loop: Max torque from DC motors - Stone simple

    I have been experimenting with motors on my milling machine. I currently have a very temporary lash up of a 300 watt brushless motor installed. It has an integral controller that works much the same as a standard treadmill motor control. It uses a 5k external pot to set the rpm of the motor with a three wire connection, ground, tap and +15 volts.

    The problem is that while it does a beautiful job of adjusting the rpm over a full range from crawl to maximum of 3000 rpm the motor has no effective governor that maintains the set rpm under load. That makes the speed control close to useless if any real load is imposed.

    I sent the problem to the design committee to work on and they informed me yesterday that a possible solution exists that A: costs nothing B: Is dead simple C: requires no knowledge of electronics beyond that required to solder a few connections.

    The answer to maintaining motor rpm under load is to use a "closed loop" feedback system that senses motor rpm and adjusts the speed control automatically to maintain the set rpm as the load changes.

    The motor has attached to the drive pulley a plastic disk with six neo magnets embedded. This is located so that it passes close to the core of the transformer as the pulley rotates. This generates an AC voltage via the transformer that is rectified to DC.

    My brushless motor operates so that turning up the rpm follows a decreasing voltage on the potentiometer tap. The sensor consists of a small transformer with a secondary rated at 12 vac from a 117vac input. The core is cut off to leave only a centre core, making the transformer into a solenoid.

    The output of the transformer is rectified and filtered by a small capacitor and connected to the speed pot. More on that in a bit.

    The disk of magnets is very non critical in construction, diameter or magnet size. The six magnets are installed with alternating north/south polarity and are a press fit to the plastic disk.

    The transformer is mounted so that the magnets pass close to the face of the core. This should be adjustable for location and spacing so the system may be tuned. There are other possible configurations that will work just as well such as a radial mounted set of magnets on a smaller drum on a shaft with the transformer core perpendicular to the shaft.

    The object is for the sensor to provided the opposite signal to that required to adjust the rpms of the motor. This is injected by connecting the plus and minus output according to how your speed control functions.

    If the center tap of the potentiometer increases the voltage to make the motor run faster then the Sensor plus lead is connected to the tap and the minus lead to the plus volts side of the potentiometer.

    If increasing the voltage at the tap makes the motor run slower then the minus side of the sensor output is connected to the zero volts side of the potentiometer.

    The circuit:




    The installation: (this is temporary)





    The movie: 1 meg download

    Watch it take a .1 x .1 DOC in aluminum while just barely turning a 3/4" end mill. You can count the rpms.

    Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

  • #2
    Very cool, im amazed that works so well. Tryed any other configurations for the transformer, like in series beween the tap and controller? (may need a 10k~ resistor across the capacitor)
    Might work a little better at the extreams (since the pot basicly shorts itself out at the extreams)

    Is that a home made mill? looks nice, Well, other then the motor thats temporly mounted with electrical tape that is. that looks dangerious
    Last edited by Black_Moons; 01-27-2010, 04:06 AM.
    Play Brutal Nature, Black Moons free to play highly realistic voxel sandbox game.

    Comment


    • #3
      The motor is bolted on. The tape is holding it from vibrating. I'll be making a proper mount when I have this all sorted out, which it seems I do now.
      Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

      Comment


      • #4
        Now maybe if you used a DCC controller chip (model train practice) with a suitable current amplifier you could get suprising control over a DC motor. If I am not mistaken they sense motor speed via back EMF.

        Comment


        • #5
          It won't work with a brushless motor. The back emf isn't present on the supply leads as the internal controller is handling all the commutation and power switching. Same goes for a treadmill motor which my system can also control. It's intended for these types of motors where the user speed control is a potentiometer.

          Closed loop control is also much more effective. The only limit of regulation is the torque capability of the motor itself. Closed loop is also known as servo control.
          Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

          Comment


          • #6
            You have basically reinvented the setup that Seig build into their brushless motors on the KX1, KX3 and SX3.

            Three magnets and a pickup coil mounted on top of the motor.

            .
            .

            Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



            Comment


            • #7
              It works too.

              Not having seen the Seig system I can't comment on it but with my system the sensor is directly providing the control signal without further processing required. That is what keeps it so simple.
              Last edited by Evan; 01-27-2010, 07:40 AM.
              Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

              Comment


              • #8
                That is not very different from the system used on some old tape recorders.

                Refinements might include using a frequency-to-voltage chip (National makes them ( http://www.national.com/mpf/LM/LM2907.html#Overview ) or using an LED/photodiode with a notched disk.

                The photodiode has the advantage of not attracting ferrous dust/swarf, which could accumulate un-noticed and cause a runaway speed condition.

                Full wave rectification, as with 4 schottky diodes would halve the ripple, for special cases. The 22 uF and 10K is slow, and has little ripple, but may introduce an unwelcome phase shift in the feedback, or simply may be so slow as to allow considerable variation in speed. With cutters that may not be a large problem. (The LM2907 inherently is full wave).
                CNC machines only go through the motions.

                Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I took the time constant into account as I didn't want it hunting, and it doesn't. The amount of feedback is adjusted by changing the position of the pickup. It's pretty swarf resistant as the gap is around 1/8th inch. While I could have used a timing disk this is much easier and less position critical. Speed regulation is rock solid within the limits of the motor. Even at very low rpm the motor will overpower the belt with little speed change.

                  I can set it to carve off chips so slowly you can count the flutes. I haven't even tried it yet on plastic but it should be excellent for preventing overheating and melting. It's like having back gear on the spindle. The only thing that must be taken into account is motor heating which is why I have a heat sink stuck to the top. I will be installing a cooling fan on it as soon as I finalize the drive system installation.

                  I forgot to mention that the entire system including spindle motor can be run from 24 volts.

                  The photodiode has the advantage of not attracting ferrous dust/swarf, which could accumulate un-noticed and cause a runaway speed condition.
                  It won't run away. It is still being speed controlled by the speed pot. If you disconnect the feedback it speeds up about 10 percent and speed regulation vanishes of course.
                  Last edited by Evan; 01-27-2010, 09:14 AM.
                  Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Treadmills do that. My wifes treadmill adjusts to maintain whatever the digitally set speed is no matter what load you put on the belt.

                    Old treadmills can be had cheap and you get everything you need including a digital display. Granted it is in mph/kmh but I am sure a simple formula can be figured out.
                    Andy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A lot depends on the specific treadmill contoller as to how well it regulates the speed. Some are very good but most aren't. Either way nothing can beat a servo loop for accurate regulation.
                      Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        DESIGN COMMITEE.........what design committee

                        you said you'd built this machine by yourself with no help .

                        all the best.markj

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ^ now the secret comes out!
                          Andy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Stevenson
                            You have basically reinvented the setup that Seig build into their brushless motors on the KX1, KX3 and SX3.

                            Three magnets and a pickup coil mounted on top of the motor.
                            The big difference is that Sieg is doing PID control on their feedback loop, like industrial servo controls. If the commercial brushless controller Evan is using has PID control, then he's basically providing a tachometer reference to the built-in brushless controller, like the old 80's style servos (modern servos use absolute or relative position control).
                            Last edited by lazlo; 01-27-2010, 03:30 PM.
                            "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Would a little permanent magnet DC motor do the same job?

                              .
                              .

                              Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X