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perpetual motion , Overunity and free energy nuts all over the web.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Evan
    Water injection works by turning the engine into a partial steam engine, that's all. It uses some of the heat of combustion to flash boil the water creating additional cylinder pressure. It is also not sensitive to TEL in the gas and is very hard on the engine.
    Indeed it was (hard on the engine). Oldmobile used water/alcohol injection in the early Cutlass models. As a perspiring student working for an Olds dealer in the 1960's I converted quite of few of those turbo engines to carburetors. It was good money.

    All '62 Cutlasses offered a 185-bhp "Power-Pack" V-8, but greater interest surrounded another new derivation. This was the turbocharged Jetfire hardtop coupe, which shared honors with Chevy's 1962 Corvair Monza Spyder as America's first high-volume turbocar. With blower, the Jetfire V-8 churned out a healthy 215 bhp -- the long-hallowed "1 hp per cu. in." ideal -- but carbon buildup with certain grades of fuel necessitated an unusual water-injection system (actually, a water/alcohol mix).

    While the Jetfire was remarkably fast (0-60 mph in about 8.5 seconds, top speed around 107 mph), the water-injection proved unreliable. As a result, Olds abandoned turbos for 1964 in favor of a conventional 330-cid V-8 of 230-290 bhp; at the same time, Buick's new 155-bhp 225-cid V-6 became base power for the F-85 line.

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    • #47
      I had one. It was a 1963 F-85 Olds Jetfire with a four-speed.

      Adding alcohol to the water was only to prevent the water from freezing in colder climates. Alcohol by itself has a pretty low BTU. You have to use a lot of it to make the same power as gasoline.

      But, the water/alcohol injection was needed to cut down on detonation.
      More than once, I had to "feather-foot" it home after the water tank went dry.

      Thae little F-85 was incredibly fast, and I knew it was going to get me into trouble eventually, so, I traded it for a street bike.
      No good deed goes unpunished.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by jugs
        my potato's got mashed

        john
        That's the best way to use potatoes anyway, along with some gravy.
        ...lew...

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        • #49
          This has been fun reading...

          Wasn't there a concept for PM years ago that consisted of two vacuum chambers connected by a hole? With an atom in only one of the chambers it made the pressure higher so the atom moved to the other chamber which increased the pressure in that chamber so the atom moved to the other chamber endlessly?

          Best regards, Jack

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          • #50
            Originally posted by thedieter
            This has been fun reading...

            Wasn't there a concept for PM years ago that consisted of two vacuum chambers connected by a hole? With an atom in only one of the chambers it made the pressure higher so the atom moved to the other chamber which increased the pressure in that chamber so the atom moved to the other chamber endlessly?

            Best regards, Jack
            Ok... but what are you going to power with the motion of just one atom?
            This product has been determined by the state of California to cause permanent irreversible death. This statement may or may not be recognized as valid by all states.
            Heirs of an old war/that's what we've become Inheriting troubles I'm mentally numb
            Plastic Operators Dot Com

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            • #51
              I don't think a PM has to power anything, just run forever without external energy input.

              The atom which has mass moves through, space which is the definition of work so it fits the requirements.

              Best regards, Jack (chuckling to self)

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              • #52
                Water injection was common in tractors and similar engines of the 30's. Massey Harris for example had a very popular 'Pacemaker' model which used water injection. It allowed the engine to use low grade fuels including kerosene and turpentine without detonation. I used to drive one as a kid on the farm. The drill was to start on petrol then apply manifold heating (from the exhaust) and switch to the alternate fuel, advance the ignition until it began to ping then turn on the water, when the pinging stopped advance the ignition some more and add more water. It was practical on a tractor because a lot of the time was spent with a constant load therefore not really suitable for a road vehicle.

                However, with modern electronic controls it may be possible to 're-invent' the system and thereby get back to burning cheap fuels.

                BTW, jet turbine aircraft have also used 'water-methonal' to augment thrust at take off, I believe it tends to erode the turbine blades and its use is/was strictly controlled.

                Adding methanol to the water helped to mix it with the fuel, the tractor used a simple spray bar in the manifold heat exchanger and so did not need the methanol.
                Last edited by The Artful Bodger; 07-19-2010, 04:49 PM.

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                • #53
                  Those of you who doubt perpetual motion have obviously never been around small children.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by gregl
                    Those of you who doubt perpetual motion have obviously never been around small children.
                    I have a new kitten like that.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by gregl
                      Those of you who doubt perpetual motion have obviously never been around small children.
                      One good car ride and they crash and burn, kids and dogs are both like that.

                      Im glad that this thread has some interesting content and ideas that worked and did not work.

                      While I dont think we will ever see free energy or see a machine that does overunity it is good to think we machinist could make things more efficient.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by dp
                        I have a new kitten like that.

                        pics or video would be cool, my cats are all old and boring.

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                        • #57
                          I don't know...the concept of free energy seems as valid as dark matter. With one, you use energy that doesn't fit the equations, with the other, you invent something out of nothing to make the equations fit. A wave of the magic wand, and you have...science!

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by thedieter
                            This has been fun reading...

                            Wasn't there a concept for PM years ago that consisted of two vacuum chambers connected by a hole? With an atom in only one of the chambers it made the pressure higher so the atom moved to the other chamber which increased the pressure in that chamber so the atom moved to the other chamber endlessly?

                            Best regards, Jack
                            Without an input of heat, eventually the atom will stop moving at all.
                            Lee

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                            • #59
                              The presence of an atom in a vacuum does not produce any sort of pressure. Pressure is a result of atoms bouncing off the the walls of a container and each other. The shorter the mean free path the higher the pressure. If it were possible to have just one atom in a container then the mean free path would be whatever the path length is in the direction of motion.

                              It would average out to zero in the long run as the atom would move about randomly. As long as the walls of the container were above absolute zero the atom would receive a kick of kinetic energy every time it "touched" the atoms in the container walls. Since the container cannot be held at absolute zero (nothing can) the atom will continue to receive energy from the container walls and will continue to move inside the container and somtimes it will pass to the other side.

                              But, there is a catch and it is a catch that requires an understanding of quantum mechanics. An atom may have different energy levels but those energy levels are not a smooth range of levels. They are discrete levels of energy and the atom may change between levels in quantum jumps. It may not occupy any in between levels. This behaviour is completely averaged out to a smooth continuum of energy values when large numbers of atoms are considered. When it is just a single atom then the situation changes.

                              It was predicted by Einstein that there would be a lowest possible energy level below which an atom could not go. At that lowest energy level a group of atoms would all be in the same state, something that is impossible at any higher energy level. This has been discovered to be true and the name given this effect is the Bose-Einstein Condensate. Atoms at this energy level cannot contribute energy to anything and even lose their identity as individual particles of matter. A Bose-Einstein Condensate effectively contains zero kinetic energy.

                              This is the probable fate of the universe. The universe is expanding and evidence exists that the rate of expansion is increasing. Eventually the universe will expand so much that interactions between atoms will be so few that all the matter in the universe will fall into the lowest energy level and form a universe wide Bose-Einstein Condensate. When that happens it will represent the heat death of the universe. It will be a microscopic fraction of a degree above absolute zero but because of the restricted possible energy states that matter may occupy the temperature is effectively zero.

                              That is when the atom in the container will stop moving.
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                              • #60
                                Certainly science will give us perpetual motion that works in environments which contains elements that cause friction.

                                Perpetual motion exists in space, a unit of energy exerted to a mass in space will push that mass at the speed and velocity at the original time of contact.

                                The closest we have to friction elimination and power output exists on ships today that use frozen bearing electro magnetic housings.

                                The Japanese are perfecting this technology, it’s been rumored that they can propel a 100,000 tanker across the pacific on about 2000 gallons of diesel.

                                Imho think out of the box. The universal law is an action that will create an reaction, if you put 123 in and achieve your desired effect and get 456 out 123 still exists but changed to 456 perpetual motion!!!!!.

                                Its simple.


                                A sore Anthony.

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