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5 Years after Katrina...what happened to the tools?

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  • 5 Years after Katrina...what happened to the tools?

    I note that it is the 5 year anniversity of Katrina.

    When the water came, a lot of tools and machines were flooded.

    I would like to hear what happened to all that iron.

    I would especially like to hear of anyone who restored machine tools that were flooded.

    I would think there would be some good lessons for restoring old machines.

    I do know that when vehicles are flooded, they are often restored, relocated and resold in different parts of the country.

    Did anyone relocate machine tools?

    TMT

  • #2
    On the coast where the storm surge came in and then quickly went back out a lot of stuff was saved.But it was still saltwater and saltwater trashes everything quick especially motors.

    Most of the stuff our customers at work saved were woodworking machines.New motors and bearings and they are good.

    The machine shop stuff didn't fair to well,the older stuff that probably wouldn't be hurt much mostly went for scrap,too much cost to re-build.

    I know of two pieces of CNC that flooded and were saved,took major effort though.

    The stuff in NOLA was almost a total loss,that water came in and sat for months.

    I know of one steel wall plant in Chalmette,La that was less than a one year old when it got flooded.Total loss and all of that stuff was new and $$$$$$$.

    If a person has small tools they could be loaded and hauled to high ground.Other than that the best tactic I have heard was posted here.

    Jack the machine up,slip a couple sheets of heavy mill plastic sheet under the machine,then bring the plastic over top and tie it all up like a trash bag.

    Might work,assuming nothing sharp was left to tear holes in the bag.
    I just need one more tool,just one!

    Comment


    • #3
      I seriously doubt that the "plastic bag" approach would work on machines.

      Twice I have helped friends recover from flooded basements/crawlspaces.

      They both had shops below grade with significant number of fasteners in jars, plastic bags, enclosed tubes, etc.

      In each case, EVERY container had leaked water into the container...

      What a PITA to have to dry out hundreds if not thousands of fasteners.

      One lesson I have learned from helping them recover is that if a machine is restored, you will have to tear it down to the very last piece since water will be everywhere.

      TMT

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by wierdscience
        On the coast where the storm surge came in and then quickly went back out a lot of stuff was saved.But it was still saltwater and saltwater trashes everything quick especially motors.

        Most of the stuff our customers at work saved were woodworking machines.New motors and bearings and they are good.

        The machine shop stuff didn't fair to well,the older stuff that probably wouldn't be hurt much mostly went for scrap,too much cost to re-build.

        I know of two pieces of CNC that flooded and were saved,took major effort though.

        The stuff in NOLA was almost a total loss,that water came in and sat for months.

        I know of one steel wall plant in Chalmette,La that was less than a one year old when it got flooded.Total loss and all of that stuff was new and $$$$$$$.

        If a person has small tools they could be loaded and hauled to high ground.Other than that the best tactic I have heard was posted here.

        Jack the machine up,slip a couple sheets of heavy mill plastic sheet under the machine,then bring the plastic over top and tie it all up like a trash bag.

        Might work,assuming nothing sharp was left to tear holes in the bag.
        I would think that with any CNC all the electronics would have to be replaced.

        I know that if a car is immersed in water, even if it is restored it will have electrical problems later as electrical components corrode.

        TMT

        Comment


        • #5
          The problem with saving those machines is that they need to have immediate attention just to save the mechanicals. There were too many other priorities after the storm so the machines probably sat and festered before they could get attention.

          I wouldn't think there were very many machines.... most of the flooded area was low income areas....I think?
          John M...your (un)usual basement dweller

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Deja Vu
            I wouldn't think there were very many machines.... most of the flooded area was low income areas....I think?
            That's a misconception, as 80% of NO was flooded. The least effected areas were the French Quarter and the Garden District, but were still heavily damaged. What happened was the Ninth Ward and other low income areas received little to no attention after Katrina.

            Comment


            • #7
              I've got 3 restorations of the Katrina tools under my belt, A 13x36 South Bend lathe, a little bench top Barker mill, and am just wrapping up an Emco Compact 10 lathe.

              The guy I got the tools from had enough of hurricanes and moved up to east Texas and had had a pretty extensive home shop, which he brought with him. When I went to pick up the tools, I was able to see the utter devastation in smaller tools and tool boxes - mics, levels, cutting tools, gauges, etc, etc, virtually junk. I have to say, I was very apprehensive about taking on the machines after seeing the damage to the small tools.

              The South Bend turned out very nicely and I adopted it for my personal lathe and use it almost daily.

              http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...ace+south+bend

              The Barker, while it looked terrible, the little thing was virtually undamaged - even the motor was unhurt. (some of my before pics have disappeared from the thread)

              http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...ight=bill+pace

              As I said, I am just now wrapping up the Emco and while I have some pics, they arent tucked into a file yet. The bed on it got the worst damage, with some pretty serious pitting - though it looks bad, I dont think it will affect the operation. The rest cleaned up very well.

              Restoring these tools would probably not be everybody's idea of fun, it was a lot of work - very nasty (course restoring most any older machine is nasty!) But I'm an admitted "tool-a-holic" and I enjoyed the heck out of it
              Last edited by Bill Pace; 08-27-2010, 10:43 PM.
              If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something........

              Comment


              • #8
                [QUOTE=Deja Vu]The problem with saving those machines is that they need to have immediate attention just to save the mechanicals. There were too many other priorities after the storm so the machines probably sat and festered before they could get attention.

                QUOTE]

                I can believe that.

                When I was helping my friends rescue their machines after the water damage the longer a machine sat unattended the worst the corrosion..you could see it happening day by day.

                To help buiy us time, we got some livestock tanks and filled them with kerosene and fillled them full of the smaller stuff so we could do the machines first.

                TMT

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bill Pace
                  I've got 3 restorations of the Katrina tools under my belt, A 13x36 South Bend lathe, a little bench top Barker mill, and am just wrapping up an Emco Compact 10 lathe.

                  The guy I got the tools from had enough of hurricanes and moved up to east Texas and had had a pretty extensive home shop, which he brought with him. When I went to pick up the tools, I was able to see the utter devastation in smaller tools and tool boxes - mics, levels, cutting tools, gauges, etc, etc, virtually junk. I have to say, I was very apprehensive about taking on the machines after seeing the damage to the small tools.

                  The South Bend turned out very nicely and I adopted it for my personal lathe and use it almost daily.

                  http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...ace+south+bend

                  The Barker, while it looked terrible, the little thing was virtually undamaged - even the motor was unhurt. (some of my before pics have disappeared from the thread)

                  http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...ight=bill+pace

                  As I said, I am just now wrapping up the Emco and while I have some pics, they arent tucked into a file yet. The bed on it got the worst damage, with some pretty serious pitting - though it looks bad, I dont think it will affect the operation. The rest cleaned up very well.

                  Restoring these tools would probably not be everybody's idea of fun, it was a lot of work - very nasty (course restoring most any older machine is nasty!) But I'm an admitted "tool-a-holic" and I enjoyed the heck out of it

                  I would like to see the Emco pictures when it is convenient for you to post them.

                  Could you go into detail as to the unique problems the Emco offered?

                  I have several Emco machines and God forbid I would ever be in the same situation, I would like to know what to what for since the Emco is a precision machine.

                  Also...what challenges did the SB lathe offer?

                  TMT

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't post much here. Mainly hang around in the Antique Forum at PM. Darin (wierdscience) is a friend.

                    The one machine that comes to mind is Oscar Holderer's Atlas lathe. Oscar's lathe flooded in Katrina. It had been used in making models for the early space program by Oscar who was part of Wernher Von Braun's team at Huntsville. He still lives there today.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5S_145es-Q

                    So the lathe has a deep history.

                    As luck would have it the lathe had been given to Oscar's son another friend of mine who lives south of the tracks in Gulfport. We brought it to high ground at my little shop after the storm. I cleaned it up and it survived. Jim
                    JimB

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think your best bet at protecting them is take a lesson from the chinese:

                      Find the waxyest, gummiest smelliest crap, boil it in a giant vat, and dip the entire machine in it!

                      You'll still have to disassemble and completely clean everything... But at least it won't have rusted.
                      Play Brutal Nature, Black Moons free to play highly realistic voxel sandbox game.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JimB
                        I don't post much here. Mainly hang around in the Antique Forum at PM. Darin (wierdscience) is a friend.

                        The one machine that comes to mind is Oscar Holderer's Atlas lathe. Oscar's lathe flooded in Katrina. It had been used in making models for the early space program by Oscar who was part of Wernher Von Braun's team at Huntsville. He still lives there today.

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5S_145es-Q

                        So the lathe has a deep history.

                        As luck would have it the lathe had been given to Oscar's son another friend of mine who lives south of the tracks in Gulfport. We brought it to high ground at my little shop after the storm. I cleaned it up and it survived. Jim

                        Was it a bearing or babbit model?

                        One would clean up easier than the other.

                        TMT

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Black_Moons
                          I think your best bet at protecting them is take a lesson from the chinese:

                          Find the waxyest, gummiest smelliest crap, boil it in a giant vat, and dip the entire machine in it!

                          You'll still have to disassemble and completely clean everything... But at least it won't have rusted.

                          That would encapsulate the water in the machine...and rust/corrosion never sleeps.

                          If I were really desparate, I would find a tank and fill it full of kerosene and place the machines in it.


                          Remember that most people in this situation is trying to save their machines in the middle of a flood disaster where normal infrastucture is not present.

                          Just trying to find fuel to run a generator can be an impossible task.

                          Running water to hose down a machine is hit or miss.

                          We have friends in the southeastern United States that have lost their home, work and vehicles to flooding this year. They count their blessings that they still have their lives.

                          TMT

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Deja Vu
                            The problem with saving those machines is that they need to have immediate attention just to save the mechanicals. There were too many other priorities after the storm so the machines probably sat and festered before they could get attention.

                            I wouldn't think there were very many machines.... most of the flooded area was low income areas....I think?
                            Actually there were a lot of machines.NOLA and the coast were covered in small mom and pop shops that did metalwork of all types many of them specialized.They flooded and didn't come back.

                            NOLA and the lower 9th ward got all the attention,but Lakeview and Eastern NO took the biggest hit.I knew several HSM guys down there and they lost everything.Ever see a 10EE rusted solid with flakes shedding off the ways?
                            I just need one more tool,just one!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ordinary thick plastic sheeting would be likely to puncture when you set the machine back down on it. You might have a chance if you used pond liner and put scraps as pads above and below it and put a steel or wood under the legs to spread the force. The plastic also has to withstand the hydraulic force of the water stretched between the legs of the machine stand (the legs themselves might have trouble in some cases). And you want to get your bag closure up to ceiling height.

                              It is possible that buoyancy might be a problem. The space inside the bag might contain a lot of air. A 3foot*6foot*4foot volume would have a bouyancy of about 4500 pounds. If it floats, it will smash the bag. Even if it doesn't something else floating is likely to.

                              Bagging just the machine and not the stand would probably be preferable.
                              If you do bag the stand, you need a wooden box around the legs to protect the plastic from hydraulic pressure and another box built outside to protect against puncture from floating debris. But then you have still have the bouyancy problem. In the case of a lathe stand, you might be able to put enough slack between the legs that you can draw the plastic all the way up to the bed (even in the corners), minimizing bouancy.

                              A floating job site box could cause all kinds of mayem.

                              Cosmoline would also be in order. It might give some protection though it won't protect everything. LPS3 withstands a 1500 hour salt spray test. But water currents, eddy's, and cavitation might physically errode it.

                              For a smaller bench machine that you still can't transport out, if the rafters are strong enough and you can securely hang threaded rods, put two pieces of strut under the legs between threaded rods, put nuts on, and use the nuts to jack it up to the ceiling and hope the water level doesn't get that high. The reverse proceedure might not work for lowering due to corrosion of the rods.

                              If you have a forklift, you might be able to save one machine by jacking it up. The forklift itself will be toast and you may need an intact one to get the machine down. If you have a high ceiling, install the sort of shelving system they use to hold forklift pallets in warehouses, make sure your "shelves" are strong enough, and forklift the machines up onto a high shelf.
                              In normal use, the machines themselves could be in the bays under the shelves so it wouldn't take up much space.

                              If you don't have that, stack machines that can be; maybe the top one will survive. Always be aware of the dangers of overloading structures and be aware they may be subjected to some pretty odd forces in a flood as well as corrosion.

                              Machine tool stand legs could be equipped with hydraulic or screw jacks and diagonal reinforcements; the result will be very top heavy in the raised position.

                              If you have an intermodal container, you could put some machines on top (with crossbars adequate to support them), cosmolene, cover, and secure them against weather. Better yet, put stack two containers and put them in the top one and leave the bottom one open so it doesn't float. Bear in mind they are designed to take most of the weight in the corners.


                              Flood barriers might work in some cases though seepage could be a problem particularly without power for pumps:
                              http://www.theconstructioncentre.co....ion-equipment/
                              http://www.usfloodcontrol.com/

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