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  • OT: Computer Question

    Both my computers, home and work, run on windows (XP and 7). So that said, I'm not familiar with other OS's.

    My question: The back/forward buttons are on top left of screen. The scroll (up/down) buttons are over on right side of screen...why?

    I realize the amount of calories burnt up mousing across the screen is minimal, but why aren't these all in a common place?

    Just wondering.
    I bury my work

  • #2
    my mouse has back and forward buttons on the side and a scroll wheel for moving the page up and down.

    I know that doesnt answer your question, and here is another windows one. Why do you have to hit the start button to shut down?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by recoilless

      I realize the amount of calories burnt up mousing across the screen is minimal, but why aren't these all in a common place?

      Just wondering.
      I assume you're referring to browser software? I must say that's a really good question. I tried dragging the navigation bar around on IE8, and Google Chrome, but they seem stuck where they are.

      I'll admit I've under-estimated the sophistication of Apple products, until I got my IPAD. A much better interface. Of course, newer, pricier too. I've gotten so used to it I find myself sometimes trying to drag icons around on my PC screen with my finger tip. But all that Apple sophistication is belied by the countless apps they offer, 95 percent of which are totally lame.


      Just my opinion,

      Gary
      Gary


      Appearance is Everything...

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      • #4
        My question: The back/forward buttons are on top left of screen. The scroll (up/down) buttons are over on right side of screen...why?
        I presume you mean the scroll bar on the right of the main browser window. If so, that isn't a function of the browser but of the way that Windows deals with screen content that needs to scroll. It is up to the programmer if the screen is allowed to scroll but it isn't optional where that scroll bar is placed. For left justified text it must be on the right side. The forward and back buttons are a different matter as they are browser specific. They can be placed anywhere the programmer desires. If the programmer allows it the user can also move them around. IE8 doesn't permit much customization so there aren't many options that you can change about the look and feel of the program. Other browsers such as Opera allow nearly total customization of the user interface.
        Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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        • #5
          You must be referring to your browser (IE I assume) ...

          The scroll bars and their locations are just what Microsoft determined to be the standard. They could have been anywhere. If you write you own application you can add them anywhere.

          Don't you realize that Microsoft knows what is best for us all?! ;-)
          "Work hard. Tell everyone everything you know. Close a deal with a handshake. Have fun!"

          -- Harold "Doc" Edgerton

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          • #6
            Turn your mouse speed up. I can go from bottom right to top left with about 2 inches of mouse movement.

            Buy a mouse with a scroll wheel on it.

            Steve.

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            • #7
              If you write you own application you can add them anywhere.
              Nope, at least not in Visual Basic or C#. If you use left to right text the vertical scroll bar goes on the right. If you use right to left text it goes on the left. It isn't optional.
              Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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              • #8
                Apple's Safari lets you move all the tool bar components where ever you want. If you want forward/back on the right hand side you can move them there.

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                • #9
                  Here's a rather numbing article on the history of window managers:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_manager

                  The window manager is a system of widgets, API's, and libraries that define what screen artifacts are available, how they are presented, and how they interact with the user.

                  Seems like every few years somebody introduces the latest big thing and all the window managers have it in the next possible release

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Evan
                    Nope, at least not in Visual Basic or C#. If you use left to right text the vertical scroll bar goes on the right. If you use right to left text it goes on the left. It isn't optional.
                    That restriction exists only if you choose to use the default ScrollableControl derived classes (like Form). And even then, you can wrest control away if you like. But in the end, you can do it any way you like. I do lots of fully custom controls. Within reasonable limitations, if I can conceive/define it, I can implement it, even in C# (just as much as I can in C or C++).

                    But as suggested, it IS the Windows (and other) standard to locate scrolls left and bottom. Other standards/conventions (general usability theory) are the cause of the seeming disconnect of next/back being top-left.
                    Russ
                    Master Floor Sweeper

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                    • #11
                      I do lots of fully custom controls. Within reasonable limitations, if I can conceive/define it, I can implement it, even in C# (just as much as I can in C or C++).
                      Sure. You don't need to use MS controls at all if you want. However Microsoft isn't going to do that in IE. They will stick with the program.
                      Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Evan
                        However Microsoft isn't going to do that in IE. They will stick with the program.
                        But the post you replied to was specifically targeted to writing your own application.
                        If you write you own application you can add them anywhere
                        And your reply made it sound like there was a limitation in the language/runtime.
                        Nope, at least not in Visual Basic or C#. If you use left to right text the vertical scroll bar goes on the right. If you use right to left text it goes on the left. It isn't optional.
                        You are absolutely correct that these are generally accepted limitations when hosting within the browser (well, if you stick to main stream (D)HTML and related open technologies), or even when developing classic UI applications by utilizing/leveraging provided libraries.

                        But I just wanted to clarify that it is not a deficiency or requirement forced by the languages/runtimes/libraries mentioned. Exactly how those languages are to be used in a browser (server/client side, generational, etc.) is a different discussion entirely, but in general there is really nothing that can be done in C or C++ that can't be done in C# (though perhaps not equally as easy). The same has not been true for VB.Net, though the differences are diminishing with each release.

                        In any case, the OP was asking why the separation of seemingly related bits of UI, and as I (and others) indicated, it's really about standards and their evolution. The existing (standard/typical) browser design generally meets accepted current standards/guidelines for general UI. It is generally considered "bad form" at the very least to change such standard UI features as the location of scroll bars "just for a single browser" (or any other application for that matter). And that was the main (most relevant to the OP) thing I wanted to convey.

                        Getting a bit late and short on sleep lately, hopefully that makes some sense...
                        Russ
                        Master Floor Sweeper

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                        • #13
                          But I just wanted to clarify that it is not a deficiency or requirement forced by the languages/runtimes/libraries mentioned.
                          Purely technically it isn't since there is nothing to stop the programmer from doing anything the hardware will allow.

                          Realistically most larger corps frown on such things as custom controls because of the increased risk of compatibility breaking. In effect the limits of the language as written by Microsoft are the limits on the programmer.

                          I don't like the way that the Visual programming system works. It imposes strictly the MS way of doing things. It's easy to use but if you want to step off the path you run into all sorts of roadblocks that often make no sense. Simple concepts that should be easy to implement often require "cheating" in order to accomplish and I don't mean custom controls. Intercepting system messages and changing or discarding them is a frequently used tactic but is dumber than a sack full of hammer handles as a way to do things.

                          There is also a lot of inconsistency in how the various available controls work. There are lots of instances where two similar controls don't support the same set properties or events even though there is no reason why they shouldn't. It becomes a struggle to really customize a piece of software such as my camera controller that needed to have the entire UI brightness controlled to preserve eye adaption at night.

                          This is the daytime GUI appearance although it can be changed from this default by the user.



                          To change the nightime appearance I had to fiddle the way the system presents colours to the point that this appearance can't be screen captured.

                          This is with the settings sheet exposed.



                          I also don't like the entire philosophy behind exception handling. I don't create exceptions in my programs so I don't need to trap them after the fact. I make sure they are caught before they happen. The above software hasn't yet created an exception and has no exception code at all.
                          Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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                          • #14
                            Mac isn't any better.

                            In the Safari browser, the "back" button is right next to the "close window" button. I'm forever closing the window when I just wanted to go back a page.
                            Lee

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                            • #15
                              You certainly do have some valid points, but there are so many responses to some inaccurate and/or incomplete points raised, it would take a book (and has) to address them.

                              Responding to the point raised about exceptions alone would take hours of typing just to do justice. And the short answer, which happens to be that exceptions DRAMATICALLY *simplify* code, is only going to force the long discussion that I would prefer to avoid in this venue. And that is the easiest to frame of the points I would address if we were in an environment more conducive (and appropriate) to the discussion (like face to face).

                              This is going far too off topic (both board and post) already, so I won't comment further.
                              Russ
                              Master Floor Sweeper

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