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  • #31
    I carry a Sig 45ACP and like it but, A Tarus Judge in 410 & 45 long colt is probably a better defensive weapon.
    Byron Boucher
    Burnet, TX

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    • #32
      To anyone wanting the facts on guns and gun control, the best source I know of is http://www.gunfacts.info/ This treatise is well-organized by [/I]topic, and all statistics come from sources such as FBI, DOJ, etc. In fact, this file debunks the statement by Fasttrack, above.
      Unfotunately it also appears to be another gun nut site. It seems to be impossible to find an unbiased website addressing firearm statistics - every site I find is either gun phobe biased or gun nut biased.

      If anybody knows of an unbiased site I would like to find it.
      "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"

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      • #33
        Try the Dept of Justice.
        Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ADGO_Racing
          I don't think I will be asking some Arab his opinions about guns ownership anytime soon. "American citizen" or not.....
          You should educate yourself about the man. He is probably the biggest champion of gun rights and ccw in your country.
          As an expert witness in court he has been instrumental in the exoneration of more good cops facing wrongful accusations in the line of duty then any hundred guys you can name.

          Judge the man... not his name.
          Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
          Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

          Location: British Columbia

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ADGO_Racing
            I don't think I will be asking some Arab his opinions about guns ownership anytime soon. "American citizen" or not.....

            Ummm, that book is not about Ayoob's opinions on gun ownership. It is mostly about the legal and psychological aspects of what happens to someone in the aftermath of an armed confrontation. It is an excellent book, and brings to light a bunch of stuff most of us would not necessarily even think of.

            Ayoob was born here and was a NH state trooper. He is a strong, long time second amendment supporter and runs the Lethal Force Institute that teaches, for lack of a better term, "gun fighting" all over the country. Google it.

            Before anyone asks, no, I do not work for him or his company, don't know the guy, etc. I've read a number of his book and find them to be pretty well written and interesting.

            EDIT - And just for the record, ADGO, Mr. Ayoob shares your opinion of pepper spray...
            Last edited by alanganes; 11-29-2010, 08:02 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by jdunmyer
              Personally, I'd lots rather deal with the psychological impact of taking another's life than dealing with my own death or injury. Sure, I'd probably give up my wallet IF that would get the thief to leave.

              To anyone wanting the facts on guns and gun control, the best source I know of is http://www.gunfacts.info/ This treatise is well-organized by topic, and all statistics come from sources such as FBI, DOJ, etc. In fact, this file debunks the statement by Fasttrack, above.
              Talk to any police officer. I have three in my family and one sharp shooter for the KC SWAT team. Everyone of them will tell you that nearly all muggers aren't prepared to kill someone. They'll take your money and run, unless you threaten them. Then they'll retaliate.

              Yeah ... ok. Obviously "gunfacts.info" is a reliable source. Come on guys - try looking at some real studies and not half-arsed attempts at science made by a bunch of gun nuts.

              I have no problems if you want to carry a gun. I like guns. But I'm also realist.

              Originally posted by Ewen Callaway
              Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.
              http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi....2008.143099v1

              There are other scholarly articles regarding this topic. These are peer reviewed publications - that means the study was carried out by experts and then reviewed by other experts. They are also as nearly objective as possible. It's not published by a pro or con gun group - it's just research. Incidentally, the P value for these studies was less than 5% - not bad at all. Those sources in that Gun Info book relied on estimation and sloppy statistics. Furthermore, I know nothing about UK. Maybe in the UK owning a gun is a very effective way of preventing crime. That is not the case in the US.

              So sure ... believe what you want.

              EDIT:

              Apparently, of convicted felons in 11 different prisons, about 66% of them were NOT deterred by the defensive use of firearms. That's a majority, folks.

              Book: Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms (Expanded Edition). By James D. Wright and Peter D. Rossi. Aldine De Gruyter, 1986 (Expanded edition published in 1994).

              That study from the UK was taken out of context. That is why the actual study is not cited - the author just says that is was from the UK Home Office If you look at the study, you will quickly see that those figures are not applicable to the US.
              Last edited by Fasttrack; 11-29-2010, 08:17 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Boucher
                I carry a Sig 45ACP and like it but, A Tarus Judge in 410 & 45 long colt is probably a better defensive weapon.
                You beat me to it, I was going to recomend the Judge

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                • #38
                  As Evan noted:

                  "They like to eat things."
                  In our neck of the woods, it's usual for folks to post a note on the communal mailbox when cougar or bear are sighted.

                  Two years ago an elderly couple was hiking on a well-traveled trail nearby when a cougar leaped on the man and started scalping him (literally). The wife, amazingly and courageously, picked up a nearby tree branch and beat the cougar from her husband's head. The animal was probably startled witless.

                  She ran for help and found it nearby, another hiking couple with a cellular telephone. The husband had to be airlifted down to San Francisco for treatment - our local medical staff couldn't deal with the damage. Sheriff's deputies combed the area and shot the animal within a few hours.

                  Small dogs, as well as farm animals, are easy prey for these animals and I have seen cougars that are three feet at the shoulders weighing over 150 pounds. They have become a problem as far south as Los Angeles !!!

                  My wife was formerly Director of Nursing at a small convalescent hospital about 1/2 mile from our home. There was constant conflict with bears hanging around the locked dumpsters - the wildlife people are spread too thin to be of help. One day, a housekeeper went into the laundry room to pick up clean sheets and pillowcases and found a bear in the room. Apparently the animal had broken through the window wire, probably smelling food from the hospital cafeteria. This story eventually had a happy ending for people and bear.

                  Three years ago, as one of my brothers-in-law was leaving for work, a bear blocked his way between house and truck and could not be frightened away. They have small children so he was clearly concerned. I don't want to complete this story because it MAY involve behavior that wasn't exactly legal but let's just leave at the point that he did what he thought was best in the situation. This event occurred within the city limits of a nearby town.

                  Although this is an obvious understatement, the environment for these critters isn't always predictable to us - we can't know when their feeding habits have been disturbed or even really what motivates them to do certain things. I wouldn't rely on a handgun to protect myself from a bear (maybe a cougar could be frightened by the noise) ... When there is a bear or cougar sighting posted on the mailbox, it's local practice to prop a shotgun by the front door and block the doggie doors. (00 Buck + solid slug is better medicine for black bears than almost any handgun load unless the shot is perfectly placed.)

                  No particular point is implied in this meandering post other than stuff happens and the boy scout motto ("Be Prepared") is not a bad one, LOL. My feelings about human intruders are mixed but protection of family is pretty strong motivation in just about any situation.

                  Randy C

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Willy
                    It covers what many take for granted, the emotional and legal toll associated when one has taken another human being's life.
                    It's after the victim of your shot hits the floor, when the real hell begins.
                    Think carefully before you take someone's life, in court the perp's lawyer will do whatever it takes to make his deceased client look like the victim.

                    Well said.

                    Just so everyone is on the same page, I am not an "anti-gun" guy. I like guns - skeet and target shooting is a blast. Literally and figuratively But like I said, I'm a realist. I stand by what I said in my first post. If you don't want a gun, then you don't need a gun.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Willy
                      You should educate yourself about the man. He is probably the biggest champion of gun rights and ccw in your country.
                      As an expert witness in court he has been instrumental in the exoneration of more good cops facing wrongful accusations in the line of duty then any hundred guys you can name.

                      Judge the man... not his name.
                      Absolutely - a knowledgeable expert whose opinions I've studied for years. He has written articles for most reputable firearms publications and is indisputably respected by those who read them.

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                      • #41
                        Unfotunately it also appears to be another gun nut site. It seems to be impossible to find an unbiased website addressing firearm statistics - every site I find is either gun phobe biased or gun nut biased.

                        If anybody knows of an unbiased site I would like to find it.
                        Did you actually read any of that file?

                        I didn't think so.

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                        • #42
                          My first thought when I saw the title of this thread was...I wonder how many hours this thread will survive?

                          Well George is probably home now so I guess it should be here till at least the AM.

                          I'm an avid gun owner and competitive handgun shooter and I can't believe some of the stuff here from other gun owners.
                          Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
                          Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

                          Location: British Columbia

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by jdunmyer
                            Did you actually read any of that file?

                            I didn't think so.

                            I did. I also checked the sources, when any real publication was given. Just saying it came from the FBI or the UK Home Office is not a real citation, by the way.


                            More importantly, did you read my reply?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Evan

                              I carry a cut down 12 guage that I keep ready. First load is 00 buck and a solid slug is next.



                              Who's gonna argue with that???



                              Im with Fastrack - except Id reverse his saying --- if you don't need one then you really don't want one, at least that's the way I feel about them now - I used to be a gun freak as a teen and then just kinda outgrew it --- I could see owning one someday if the situation warrants it but im just batching it, live in a good area and don't want anything more than my half pint aluminum baseball bat for home defense,,,
                              I would really struggle with it if I had a wife and kids, The only thing worse than not being able to defend them is either having someone use it against them or have the kid "play" with it and have an accident, I don't know if Id get one and have to leave it at that...

                              There's something about guns that no matter how careful some people try and be it's easy to forget about the potential energy that's being stored in them when loaded --- in comparison imagine a fully sprung crossbow to where you can see the potential energies -- then imagine people haphazardly passing it around a table with the arrow pointed at others --- It would be like GGGEEEEZUUSS dude - watch where you point that fuquing thing!!!

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                              • #45
                                You can't go wrong with a 2 or 3" .38 revolver for self defense.Mine fits easily in my front pocket opposite my wallet containing my CCP.It has come out on just one occasion,but not all the way and it immediately changed the person's mind who saw it.

                                The subject of guilt has come up,well it should,but worse than the guilt of shooting a perp is the guilt felt when YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED a violent crime,but didn't have the means to.

                                I have a good friend who witnessed an armed robbery at a gas station.He knew the owner,the owner was robbed at gunpoint and then shot dead for no reason while he stood there and watched because he was unarmed.His gun was in his truck,instead of in his pocket.It took him many years to get over that feeling and it still bothers him.

                                As for critters,mountain lions,bears,and gators are a good reason to carry larger bores and longer barrels IMHO.Even a .22lr revolver with an 8" barrel will stop a good sized animal.Around the farm,get a good holster and strap it to your leg,a cougar doesn't observe CC law,neither should you
                                I just need one more tool,just one!

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