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O.T. Ultimate threat to the heartland

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  • #16
    Jon: You're scaring me. What are the simptms of mmmd caow disese?

    Had to edit this. It is a serious topic. I have a 17.5 yr old son who doesn't recognize the danger of manufacturing and tech jobs disappearing (and corn coming from China) ... and dad is an engineer. I'm working on some serious re-educating of junior right now.

    I guess in the future if we want American grain, we'll have to stand on a bread line in the former Soviet Union.

    Den

    [This message has been edited by nheng (edited 12-13-2003).]

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    • #17
      We who make things by hand, should be proud enough to say that our work is made in the States or in Canada.

      If you want stuff from Europe, you'll get the Polish stuff like Bison. Which isn't all that good.

      How much are you willing to pay for a set of 1-2-3 blocks, Chinese and Polish ones are like $10. How much would a set be if Uncle Thrud made them?

      I need some stuff made for a machine I want and my shop doesn't have the capacity to work on that size of stuff. I am getting bigger and nicer machines, but this would tie me up for 3 weeks to make when the new machines arrives. Three places don't even one to bid on making this machine for me or even doing the basic parts, they said that it would cost too much for them to stop doing other things to make this. Two places wanted money for the time to give an estimate on making it. Many places just won't even consider doing the work, unless I want to make a bunch of them, I only need one. They could have the plans and market them on their own, but that hasn't even sunk into their heads, that they could be open a new market for themselves.

      Gee whiz, what happen to America?

      Jerry

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      • #18
        Ok Guys, Time to put up or shut up !
        You Vote in this issue with your WALLET

        I buy American made shoes (Wisconsin)
        I buy American made Pick up truck (St Louis)
        I buy American made Flags (Pennsylvania)
        I buy American made Starritt products (N.E. USA)
        I buy American when ever I can
        I do not buy Chinese

        I use Saudi Oil, Because some jerks (that do not understand economics and OUR Security !), make American oil unobtainable.
        I can only buy Old American machines, because these same jerks put the foundries out of business.
        We do not have a free labor market in this country..that is why we are using foreign products.
        The "successful" foreign cars made here in the USA are in free market states
        Very interesting to see that a guy who reads X-rays gets 300,000 a year..guess what, the hospitals are now emailing the work overseas to a technitian who makes 35,000...get the message !

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        • #19
          Rich;
          Your sentiments are well founded but;
          Those American made shoes quite likely are manufactured somewhere else for an American brand name. Wolverine for instance are offshore. Not Red Wing yet, I don't think.
          That American made auto is assembled from many components made in Mexico, Canada and many other places. Many of the high tech electronic components are Asian.
          Flags, I don't know about, but it is probably very difficult to find those that are made in USA, and I would doubt that even those are completely American made. I would not be surprised to find that the grommets for instance are offshore.
          Starrett is now having several of their tools manufactured in China. Dial indicators and dial calipers, and some others as I recall.
          I too buy American whenever possible. It is impossible not to buy Chinese something at this point, as the American manufacturer is gone. Most small appliances, toys and many electronic products are simply no longer manufactured in the USA.
          Jim H.

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          • #20
            There is a company called Arvin Diamond, it's address is Coonpath Road, Lancaster Ohio. For decades they have supplied products to the automotive industry, the video industry and several others.

            If you go to the address you will find a sales office of one person, a finacial person and the executive incharge of the company. All other products are licensed out to different manufactures over seas, and have been for a long time. The research and the patents are American, but the products are made else where. My Dodge back in the early 70s, which had all MoPar parts and American brands, most were made somewhere else than North America. My last Ford pickup truck (which I wish I still had) was made in Canada with parts from all over the world, and ran well beyond 180,000 miles. I bought a Ford Aerostar in 1988, it spent more time with the dealer being fixed under warranty than with me. It was proudly made in St. Louis. The last 5 Toyotas that I purchased ran well the whole time I had them, they came from factories in the states.

            If you want a high quality American built automobile, that will last forever buy a Humm V (not the Humm 2), talk about sticker shock, the wagon version lists for $117,000US.

            The American work ethic for things is how little do you have to spend and how high a price can I sell it for. One businessman keeps saying it's not what you sell it for, it's how much you buy it for at his company.

            A friend of mine owns a clothing retail store, he sells to me at cost, which is 20% of the tags price. Most of his stuff is Pacific Rim in origin and do last. What happen to getting jeans made in North Carolina for $20 a pair?


            People are willing to put up with moderate quality or short usage time and then you throw it away.

            Are you willing to give up the American way of life, to live much poorer, but have things that last until your grandchildren grownup? My grand parents were not wealthy, they made modest incomes and I still have many of the things that they bought new. My bed was handmade for my great grand parents, I had a custom size mattress and box springs made for it. But it has a regal quality to it, that some wood crafts person, took his time to make it right and was very proud of his work.

            Where is this pride today?

            Jerry

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            • #21
              Rustybolt...
              If we didn't have all the labor, environmental, and plain governmental regulations.....I suspect we would probably be just like the Republic of China.
              I believe part of the problem is the idea people have that they should make a huge income from "investments". I agree that money invested in a company should give you a return but I think expecting double digit figures is bull****. THAT is just plain greed. I work in what would be considered a "service industry", I am one of the people who keep the power flowing to your shops and homes. Necessary, but it still doesn`t produce anything in and of itself. I believe true wealth comes from producing something tangible and useful..not from some dot.com company being "worth" millions overnight because of the stock enchanges and not from the production of throw-away crap that we didn't need in the first place and that we wouldn't have missed if we had never had it. Is it my imagination or is there a trend towards more people being able to only use the things they buy and not being able to fix items when they break down, even when it is possible to fix them? Seems like more and more stuff just can't be fixed anyways. And yes, Walmart is a very, very evil company....
              Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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              • #22
                Threat to the heartland is increase cost of living.

                Unions demand a bigger piece of the pie, cost of manufacture goes up, Company is forced to go over sea's. The union guys need the money to survive.
                High Taxes, cost of living is ruining this country. Industry was traditionally cheap labor, low paying wages, but one could live off of it. Not anymore in this day and age.
                People with college degrees were the ones that got payed the big bucks, now Union workers often get payed as much as college graduates.
                Cost of living goes down, so the cost of manufacture goes down. Thats the only way, otherwise this country is going to replace manufacturing with Service Industry.

                Car mechanics I hear have it mighty good now.

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                • #23
                  here's a link to a list of some US-made merchandise (sometimes they get a little crazy with pop-up windows):

                  http://www.usstuff.com/prodlist.htm

                  the footwear topic interested me. my 9-year-old Red Wing boots are "Made in the USA". at $149 for steel-toe insulated, they weren't a bad price (i don't know the price for the same thing today). if you really want to spend some bucks for footwear, check out these guys (US-made, of course):

                  http://www.whitesoutdoor.com/boots_s...hite%27s+Boots

                  and my current everyday footwear is a pair of handmade ankle-height shoes made by Tom Mattimore at Mattimore Harness. he specializes in Civil War footwear, but as he put it "we ARE a REAL footwear manufacturer".
                  :-)

                  i have the CS Oxfords (bottom of the page). he put a Vibram sole on them (not Civil War correct of course), but dang are they comfortable.

                  http://www.civilwarboots.com/shop/in...get=Boots.html

                  sure, none of this stuff has "air-anything" in the name, and you won't find them for $15 at pay-less, but if my $100 pair of Tom Mattimore shoes last as long as my $149 pair of Red Wings, i think averaging out to $10 per year is a worthwhile investment. i guess the younger folks today can't relate to that since they quit teaching them math.

                  just thought the footwear thing was interesting.

                  andy b.
                  The danger is not that computers will come to think like men - but that men will come to think like computers. - some guy on another forum not dedicated to machining

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                  • #24
                    Well your right I did forget one other thing you can do about it,make it here yourself!

                    Ever read some of the history articles on the machine achieve?Most of those comapnies started as small one or two man shops in the back of somebodies barn or garage.

                    We can not forget that we are capable of making our own new industry,so long as Hillary doesn't get elected,like she said when asked what about small business and what they do if her health care plan would be passed into law,her response was"I can't be responsible for every under capitalised small business out there"-in other words let them eat cake!
                    I just need one more tool,just one!

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                    • #25
                      New York has lost most all of our apple growers due to juice from China shipped and delivered with a nondeposit container for less than our guys can pick the fruit much less get the apples juiced for.

                      My father is on the NAFTA board as a grower rep. for potatoes (The suits made the deals and we are to try to straighten the details out.) Canadian potatoes are just eating us alive. I fielded a lot of calls fron NY growers letting my dad know the acers they left in the ground before the November meeting. They get 1/2 the trucking paid for once the load crosses the boarder. Property tax is repaid to the grower if they farm another year. Ag cemicals are about the same as prescription drugs as far as the border is concered. Quebec gets an income insurance program that kicks in once the product price drops below the cost of production, the program is structured so that they can profit MORE from the ins. than the market will ever let them... So they dump spuds and let the gov pay. I think you will have a real wake up call as more products get with the COOL (country of origin lableing) rules.

                      Farm mags were figureing about a $1million savings per shipload of soy from south america vs home grown by the time it got to the big livestock feeding operations.

                      In the last five years at least one large farm operation sold at auction in preperation to relocate to the southern hemi per year.

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                      • #26
                        JC
                        My shoes have an American flag in both tongues, a union Label and say "Made in America"! and "real leather"
                        The sole says "Polyped"...."Made in America".
                        I think it is a division of Wolverine shoes ??

                        I have found American Made Flags at Sears,
                        "The Fly Me Flag Company" and Fleet Farm stores. Also at a Ace hardware
                        The "problem" is I paid 20 bucks, where most supporters of foriegn goods pay 8 for a Chinese replica
                        Check out
                        http://crs-enterprises.com/flag.htm

                        The Starritt stuff I have says" Made in USA"
                        I won't argue over the ferrules, as I don't know, and it evades the real issue in my opinion. Just as the other posts, say"parts are made for autos in Canada " etc etc ,to me, its an excuse to not buy the product made here in the USA.
                        I don't play head games, particularly with myself.

                        I would like to address our Farm and manufacturing problems if I may:
                        I think that "Economics" is one of the least understood aspects of education....and a lot of what we say here has to do with economics..but I will keep it simple.
                        Everyone wants "stuff" as cheap as possible.
                        THIS is human nature......
                        "Cheap" is only possible though :
                        1.control of raw material and energy costs
                        2.control of labor costs
                        3.control of taxes
                        4.control of tranportation costs
                        5.improved production efficencies

                        To see how this applies, think of just two things:
                        Englands industrial rule of the world in 1800
                        Farms and milk production.

                        England "lost" their leadership in the world to the USA around the time of the Civil War..
                        Why ????
                        Its the same problem...no its the Identical situation "WE" now face with China.
                        England lost, because we could beat them in all 5 cases. We had the iron ore and coal,
                        taxes were cheap, labor was cheap,transportation was cheaper AND the Americans figured out ways to do it faster...ie.more productivity !

                        Compare this to China...
                        1. they have a lot of raw matrials, but still import our scrap steel
                        2. dirt cheap labor
                        3.lower taxes ( industry pays 75 % of American rates)and no health care costs
                        4. Higher transport costs.
                        5. Productivity getting better each day...Did You know that China has LOST 10 million jobs in the last 3 years ? (improved production rates)

                        So how do we not become another Great Britain.
                        Lower 1 thru 4 as much as possible and kick heck out of #5..we can do it, but will we ?
                        When we look at the machine shop trade, we all lament about the "loss of jobs"....BUT a lot of that is from CNC machinery..my lands, a CNC center outproduces a manual machine by 5 fold, so we can expect to see some changes here.....the problem is that China sees it too ! thats why they have also lost jobs but pose a threat..still.

                        Now to see what the "Farm scene" has look at the 5 issues above and compare it to Farming.
                        The USA led the world in farm output for most of the past century, but farm prices are going up when all else comes down.
                        Think about it, Farmers want price supports and guarantees, but people want cheaper product. You can't have both.
                        look at the 5 items above and you will see that the rest of the world is matching our productivity and we pay farmers to NOT grow some crops...make sense ? of course not.
                        Farmers want to "keep " prices, but buyers are looking for lower prices. Does this mean the end of farms? probably , unless they can pool their resources and lower their prices.
                        I know my brother-in-law wouldn't do it, and I suspect our farmers are equally independent!
                        thats why Corporate farming is growing..cheaper prices and better yields
                        Just as the auto industry charged 3,000 bucks in 1900 for a car ,Henry Ford made one for 350, and people went mad for the ford car.

                        The future for America lies in our technowlogy, wither its computers, or medical and drugs, areas we still lead the world in.
                        Number 5 is our only savior since I doubt we can do much with 1 to 4

                        A few notes
                        We have the cleanest air of any industrial nation and we have the highest costs in the world for polution control
                        We pay the highest legal (Tort) cost in the world..thank you lawyers...and by the way we have the most lawyers Too.("our cost" is $809 per US citizen per year)
                        Only Japan has higher taxes then us on industry.
                        Forth highest Employee benefit costs of all industrial nations.

                        All of the above places a 22.4 % added cost on American goods versus our competion

                        The statistics above from
                        Investors Business Daily Newspaper
                        Monday Dec 15,2003 page A 20
                        Check it out !

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                        • #27
                          FarmWrench, we have a cabin up by Skaneateles. WE used to go to the local apple Orchard, Ackles Apples. Husband and wife ran it, all the way into their 90's. The best Apple cider I ever had. Was sad, when his wife died, he went into seclusion. Strangely all the apple tree's died at the same time. Nothing but memmories now, and a few apple tree's.

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                          • #28
                            The apple market is something I don't quite understand. Some years ago, about 1998, I lived just across the border from Milton Freewater Oregon. They grow a lot of apples in the area. At that time the farmers were either letting the apples rot on the trees or selling them for twenty dollars a ton as cattle feed. The Chinese had flooded the market with apple concentrate so cheap that the farmers here couldn't compete, however, the grocery stores had fresh apples for sale from such places as Australia and elsewhere for about a dollar a pound.

                            Bernard

                            [This message has been edited by BC21OSH (edited 12-15-2003).]

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                            • #29
                              I buy SAS shoes made here in the good old USA. They are well made and really comfortable. Last pair I bought was $110 but well worth it. One pair I have had for about ten years now and wear to work.

                              Bernard

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                              • #30
                                Same thing down here with seafood,shrimp,oysters,crabs you name it lots of stuff coming in from China.

                                If you see boiled shrimp anywhere and they have black legs its because they where blast frozen somewhere in China or Vietnam
                                I just need one more tool,just one!

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