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Making the Dickson tool with the horizontal mill

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  • Making the Dickson tool with the horizontal mill

    I'd mentioned in the QCTP thread i was making some, been taking pics, thought you guys would get a kick....there's nothing super complex about them, just fun seeing the mill plough through big hunks of steel

    even after the gloats, lots of stuff i don't have....bought these goose necks from the store and man are they ever nice! the low profile makes this possible that otherwise would be very tricky to set up

    i made this plugs - a snug fit in the T slot with the body concentric. Really helpful for setups....the hold the work but also are a reference point for perfect repeatability. The slab you see is one of three that's being turned in Dickson tool holders

    The horizontal just ploughs through whatever at full depth of cut. The key here was symmetry....maintaining perfect symmetry let me turn the work 180, rest it against the plugs or stops and repeat the op for the other side. Here is the first pass of the centre channel, the second, with the work turned 180 completes the slot so the edge of the slot is the same from the edge of the work on each side.

    end of the first pass, btw my new central coolant system is providing the flood

    in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

  • #2
    similar set up, different cutter - making the 1/8" slit along the V's axis

    Next its cutting the V's. i clamped the work to two large V blocks as shown. Still using the stops, its easy flip the work to do both sides and then load the next slab

    clamping a pin in an existing tool holder lets me measure from the inside edge of the T slot to the outside of the pin, and from back surface to the top of the pin. parallels are used here to get the work where i want it relative to the T slots for clamping

    after a test pass, the same is done on much its out gets treated like two vectors and Mr pythagoras tells how much to move Z and Y. Amazingly everyting came out within a thou or two

    in Toronto Ontario - where are you?


    • #3
      Thanks for posting that. Those clamps look nice, and agree they're great for a horizontal as sometimes setting up to get under the arbour can a PIA. Where did you source them from? It looks like they'd hold a lot more securely than the low profile clamps I'd try to use, as they positively stop the work from lifting, I think a tendency with that type of cut. What type of machine is that BTW?



      • #4
        The horizontal leaves a great finish

        done, that op anyway....

        the same type of plug is set on the vertical mill where i will mill the rest of the T slot....could do on the horizontal but you cant see very well and its a light cut. This was fun as i had both mills going

        got the first T slot compete and the slab seems to fits perfectly! more as i get them done
        in Toronto Ontario - where are you?


        • #5
          Originally posted by PeteF
          Thanks for posting that. Those clamps look nice, and agree they're great for a horizontal as sometimes setting up to get under the arbour can a PIA. Where did you source them from? It looks like they'd hold a lot more securely than the low profile clamps I'd try to use, as they positively stop the work from lifting, I think a tendency with that type of cut. What type of machine is that BTW?


          Machine is an Elliot, or Victoria as they were badged in the UK. 5 hp. goose necks came from KBC....they have the armstrong ones at $90 each but these made in USA forgings were like $6 & $10 for the 4" and 6" Even cheap enough for me! Wish I'd bought them years ago
          in Toronto Ontario - where are you?


          • #6
            Great thread!

            I really like this thread. Makes me wish I had that type of QCTP instead of a Multifix.

            The best is your pretty blue coolant! Mine is always yuck brouwn.
            Location: The Black Forest in Germany

            How to become a millionaire: Start out with 10 million and take up machining as a hobby!


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mcgyver
              Wish I'd bought them years ago
              I bet! I could only find the expensive ones you mentioned, but saw some other stepped clamps I think could easily be home-grown and should do a similar job. My machine is MUCH smaller than yours, but it was difficult to get a perspective from the photos. A big gulp like that would be too much for my little mini-me mill


              • #8
                Mcgyver,, Thanks for posting a very interesting procedure,, much appreciated!!!


                • #9
                  Hello Mcgyver,

                  Great photos.

                  Do you have any dimensioned drawings or sketches that you worked from? I was planning to do the same as you on my much smaller Elliott 181 H?V miller. My holders are the SO size ( length, height, width = 73mm, 38mm, 32 mm). Even if yours are a different size, I would be interested to see the respective angles for the mounting faces.

                  Rgds. Ian.


                  • #10
                    Really nice series of pics, thanks.

                    I also have these toolholders, T3 size, so 125mm wide.

                    I guess that when the factory makes these, the central groove and both vee grooves are gang milled in one pass. I like your solution of putting the work at 45 degrees in a couple of vee blocks, and using a plain square cutter. Must have been a pain to set up, but well done.

                    So good to see a horizontal mill at work. Horizontals seem to live in a separate group of machine tools, along with shapers and radial drills (maybe also planers). Very much out of fashion, but still capable of doing lots of good work in the right hands, and able to remove metal at a high rate.

                    How many holders will this end up as?

                    All of the gear, no idea...


                    • #11
                      Wondered how long it would be before the Super Gloater started to show off his new wares

                      Ian Pendle, March 3rd 1989 Muddle Ingineer, an article by Dave Piddington showing toolholder for Myford-Dickson QCTP.

                      PM your E-mail if you don't have a copy.

                      Regards Ian.
                      You might not like what I say,but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.


                      • #12
                        Nice to see a horizontal machine being used in a proper manner, and HSS tooling getting a good workout.

                        Do you leave any material for grinding to finish? It seems to me that the center distance of the two V-grooves would be critical for tool position repeatability.

                        BTW, what coolant are you using? It kinda looks like the ValCool VP Tech that a friend of mine is running. He loves it. I had to go with a full synthetic (ValCool VP920) because I wanted only one type for the grinder and the lathe.
                        Last edited by PixMan; 04-08-2011, 08:47 AM.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Black Forest
                          I really like this thread. Makes me wish I had that type of QCTP instead of a Multifix.

                          The best is your pretty blue coolant! Mine is always yuck brouwn.
                          It's what's leftover from his blue rinse

                          If yours is brown - but smells ok you've got tramp oil (skim it off) or rust in the system.

                          If it stinks - you've got a bacteria, it can make you very ill. READ THIS - DON'T BREATH ANY MIST or SPRAY, if you get some on your skin WASH THOROUGHLY.

                          Drain & flush system with bleach, recharge with new & add anti-bacterial tablets.


                          I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not so sure , but I'm not a complete idiot - some bits are still missing


                          • #14
                            thanks guys, I'll try to answer/comment all the points....

                            - coolant is Rustlick 5050 mixed 20:1. first time using it, got fed up with Tri-Cool synthetic which seemed to overflow with bacteria growth when i turned my back. gets used in my central sytem for all machines, its supposed to be universal, but i'm no coolant guru

                            - no dimensions, they're from 4" x2" bar with a quality holder on hand as a master to measure as i go.

                            - Ian's; the spacing of the V's is important, the key to it working out was every op was done twice; one side after the other, registering against the pins in the T slot ensuring symmetry. To start, I needed a 1.25 slot in a 4" bar, so I carefully, using trial cuts, got the first past set up so the slot start exactly 1.375 from the edge. The when the work was flipped over, I get a slot 1.25 wide and exactly in the centre.

                            for the 1/8 slot, I touched the cutter the side of of the slot and move it over the amount measured from the master, again with the flip, everything is symmetrical.

                            Angled surfaces can be trickier to place - the pins are used to create positive references so offsets from the back surface and T slot can be measured. The only tricky bit is these need to translated 45 degrees to convert to movements of the hand wheel. For instance if you need to move the pin 20 though closer to the T slot, that's 20 thou on a 45 degree right angle triangle so each axis gets moved 14 thou.....i guess the tricky part is that you have to do that both for distance to T slot and from back surface

                            longer to type than to do. Set up wasn't that bad, horizontal set ups always seem to take longer....but there's good scales of economy....each op is done 6 times, 2 sides x 3 pieces

                            - hope to get 20 + holders, have 1/2 dozen already, can't remember what my target was or even the total length of steel, bought it awhile ago

                            - haha, super gloating is about psychotic compulsive collecting of the weird and wonderful, a form of sport really, mostly gets done with the same stuff I've been using for 15 years

                            - centre distance of the V grooves is somewhat important, and I'm i think within a thou (i'll check with blue when they're chopped up and can be tightened without fouling the cam)....however on considering it, I think only the two big surfaces matter. Variance in the V distance would mean the distance at which it caught the plate (cam) would change in and out for the tool holder a little. It took a while for the ball to drop on this point, since clamping effectiveness is supposed to independent of surface area, its no more effective if the 2 small surfaces are or aren't in contact and frankly it would be very difficult to achieve this; sort of like getting machine V ways to mate properly. Its quite challenging to get 4 angle surfaces all in complete contact. Challenging enough that I'd guess only the two large ones are supposed to be....but I'll check back with I can clamp it and get some feeler gauges or blue in there

                            - they will not be hardened or ground, no need for me in my shop so far as i can see. The material is in compression and short of abuse don't think it be hurt

                            - John, for quite awhile i've been building a central coolant system - it has incoming filter, tramp oil skimmer, UV light + circulation and a bubbler. Braces and a belt all intent on maximizing coolant life. It's also on casters and has a drain plug making it accessible and easy to washout compared to some of the horrific sumps built into machine bases. I went central as i didn't want to replicate that much infrastructure at each machine. Its actually kinda neat having multiple machines running all accessing the same coolant system. To early to comment on its effectiveness, but I really like using flood coolant and hate having it go bad so its all an effort to get a great coolant delivery system that'll stay blue for a long time
                            Last edited by Mcgyver; 04-08-2011, 10:48 AM.
                            in Toronto Ontario - where are you?


                            • #15
                              The mill reminds me of my English Harrison(which I can never remember how to spell). It is a universal type horizontal,and a very powerful gear head mill for its size. I seldom use it since I have and Bridgeport type,too (and a Deckel fp1). It will remove metal a lot faster than the vertical mill,though. Jobs just haven't come along that I need it for. It is a delightful machine,though.