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Making the Dickson tool holders....fun with the horizontal mill

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  • Mcgyver
    replied
    what sort of RPM or feed rate were you using when making that V-groove? The chip just seems to small or was it a finishing pass?
    They are small. it was a light cut but being only partially supported on the V blocks, I went very slowly being concerned about vibration through the long unsupported stretch. Feed .7 ipm, rpm 55.

    In general i go full DOC and adjust feed and rpm so there's a decent chip at a removal rate the machine can handle. at 5hp on a older machine you can make it hop across the floor. I just set it up for maximum removal rate without it shaking to pieces. The V's were a little different as it wasn't the most solid set up.

    I double that for the secondary bevels (not yet shown) and it was fine...perhaps i was being too cautious....bu I'm just not much concerned about milling time. its all power feed and I'm doing something else while long cuts are going on. .7 ipm but I'm still going like a one armed paper hanger the whole time I'm in the shop

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  • rmuell01
    replied
    Originally posted by Mcgyver
    I'd mentioned in the QCTP thread i was making some, been taking pics, thought you guys would get a kick....there's nothing super complex about them, just fun seeing the mill plough through big hunks of steel

    even after the gloats, lots of stuff i don't have....bought these goose necks from the store and man are they ever nice! the low profile makes this possible that otherwise would be very tricky to set up
    Yeah, even after your gloats, you have to remind us in every posting!

    not much of a shopper are you, when you have to go out and actually buy something!

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  • Timleech
    replied
    Originally posted by Lew Hartswick
    So! This type of holder is called "Dickson".

    .....

    From what someone said there must be a range of sizes of these.
    Where is a link to see such? Thanks.
    ...lew...
    Try this:-

    http://www.mscjlindustrial.co.uk/CGI...TEM=TQC-79010J

    Tim

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  • Lew Hartswick
    replied
    So! This type of holder is called "Dickson". I have been using the ones
    on our Clausing Metosa lathes at school for about 12 years an never
    saw a name for the type. The ones on the lathes have a metal tag
    with the name of the company (I assume) on it, some Spanish name
    that starts out Mechan......
    I've made a few out of aluminum, at first just to see if I could and it
    worked fine for our light duty so am going to make a few more.
    Used a Bridgeport vert. mill and a V cutter to do the grooves, that
    way the ctr to ctr distance was just the "domain" of the Anilam. :-)
    From what someone said there must be a range of sizes of these.
    Where is a link to see such? Thanks.
    ...lew...

    Leave a comment:


  • Jaakko Fagerlund
    replied
    Just for general information, the V-grooves center to center distance isn't critical. At work we have a tool holder system for the lathe that has 75 mm center to center V-grooves and some of the holders are from a different set, having 76 mm center to center V-grooves. Still works as supposed to and indexes just as good as any other ones too

    The secret is as said, that it doesn't matter in positioning if the V-grooves only touch from the inner or from the outer faces in positioning.

    Edit: Mcgyver, what sort of RPM or feed rate were you using when making that V-groove? The chip just seems to small or was it a finishing pass?

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  • Timleech
    replied
    I made a batch of about 15 T2 size holders several years ago. I don't recall taking any pics and can't remember the exact details. Probably didn't have a digital camera at that time. Did them on my Elliott Omnimil, which was a similar machine to the OPs but with a turret head as well as the horizontal. Actually did it all with endmills/facemills apart from the T slot. Didn't have many horizontal cutters at that time, hadn't had the mill for long. Mounted a section of bar ~15" long on a big tilting table for the angled faces, from what I remember did them all with one setup. No narrow slots in mine, not all holders have them as the Vees on the post are truncated. Did three or four 15" lengths.
    Cut the bars to toolholder length in a chop saw, made them to a couple of different lengths.
    Did the slots for the tools in one pass with a big slot drill mounted in the horizontal spindle, with the toolholder mounted on the toolpost which was bolted to the lathe bed, with extra stops to make sure it didn't twist.
    All done in mild steel, must be over 10 years ago now, never any problem with them.
    Great thing about making your own is being able to do 'specials' without feeling you're messing up something which has cost a lot of money. I have a couple for Coventry die boxes, and some which I drilled for boring bars rather than the usual vee groove, also being mild steel it's straightforward welding extra bits onto them.

    Edit - the most tedious part, as I remember, was drilling & tapping for all the clamping screws!

    Tim
    Last edited by Timleech; 04-08-2011, 11:09 AM.

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  • gwilson
    replied
    The mill reminds me of my English Harrison(which I can never remember how to spell). It is a universal type horizontal,and a very powerful gear head mill for its size. I seldom use it since I have and Bridgeport type,too (and a Deckel fp1). It will remove metal a lot faster than the vertical mill,though. Jobs just haven't come along that I need it for. It is a delightful machine,though.

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  • Mcgyver
    replied
    thanks guys, I'll try to answer/comment all the points....

    - coolant is Rustlick 5050 mixed 20:1. first time using it, got fed up with Tri-Cool synthetic which seemed to overflow with bacteria growth when i turned my back. gets used in my central sytem for all machines, its supposed to be universal, but i'm no coolant guru

    - no dimensions, they're from 4" x2" bar with a quality holder on hand as a master to measure as i go.

    - Ian's; the spacing of the V's is important, the key to it working out was every op was done twice; one side after the other, registering against the pins in the T slot ensuring symmetry. To start, I needed a 1.25 slot in a 4" bar, so I carefully, using trial cuts, got the first past set up so the slot start exactly 1.375 from the edge. The when the work was flipped over, I get a slot 1.25 wide and exactly in the centre.

    for the 1/8 slot, I touched the cutter the side of of the slot and move it over the amount measured from the master, again with the flip, everything is symmetrical.

    Angled surfaces can be trickier to place - the pins are used to create positive references so offsets from the back surface and T slot can be measured. The only tricky bit is these need to translated 45 degrees to convert to movements of the hand wheel. For instance if you need to move the pin 20 though closer to the T slot, that's 20 thou on a 45 degree right angle triangle so each axis gets moved 14 thou.....i guess the tricky part is that you have to do that both for distance to T slot and from back surface

    longer to type than to do. Set up wasn't that bad, horizontal set ups always seem to take longer....but there's good scales of economy....each op is done 6 times, 2 sides x 3 pieces

    - hope to get 20 + holders, have 1/2 dozen already, can't remember what my target was or even the total length of steel, bought it awhile ago

    - haha, super gloating is about psychotic compulsive collecting of the weird and wonderful, a form of sport really,....work mostly gets done with the same stuff I've been using for 15 years

    - centre distance of the V grooves is somewhat important, and I'm i think within a thou (i'll check with blue when they're chopped up and can be tightened without fouling the cam)....however on considering it, I think only the two big surfaces matter. Variance in the V distance would mean the distance at which it caught the plate (cam) would change in and out for the tool holder a little. It took a while for the ball to drop on this point, since clamping effectiveness is supposed to independent of surface area, its no more effective if the 2 small surfaces are or aren't in contact and frankly it would be very difficult to achieve this; sort of like getting machine V ways to mate properly. Its quite challenging to get 4 angle surfaces all in complete contact. Challenging enough that I'd guess only the two large ones are supposed to be....but I'll check back with I can clamp it and get some feeler gauges or blue in there

    - they will not be hardened or ground, no need for me in my shop so far as i can see. The material is in compression and short of abuse don't think it be hurt

    - John, for quite awhile i've been building a central coolant system - it has incoming filter, tramp oil skimmer, UV light + circulation and a bubbler. Braces and a belt all intent on maximizing coolant life. It's also on casters and has a drain plug making it accessible and easy to washout compared to some of the horrific sumps built into machine bases. I went central as i didn't want to replicate that much infrastructure at each machine. Its actually kinda neat having multiple machines running all accessing the same coolant system. To early to comment on its effectiveness, but I really like using flood coolant and hate having it go bad so its all an effort to get a great coolant delivery system that'll stay blue for a long time
    Last edited by Mcgyver; 04-08-2011, 10:48 AM.

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  • jugs
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Forest
    I really like this thread. Makes me wish I had that type of QCTP instead of a Multifix.

    The best is your pretty blue coolant! Mine is always yuck brouwn.
    It's what's leftover from his blue rinse

    If yours is brown - but smells ok you've got tramp oil (skim it off) or rust in the system.

    If it stinks - you've got a bacteria, it can make you very ill. READ THIS - DON'T BREATH ANY MIST or SPRAY, if you get some on your skin WASH THOROUGHLY.

    Drain & flush system with bleach, recharge with new & add anti-bacterial tablets.


    john

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  • PixMan
    replied
    Nice to see a horizontal machine being used in a proper manner, and HSS tooling getting a good workout.

    Do you leave any material for grinding to finish? It seems to me that the center distance of the two V-grooves would be critical for tool position repeatability.

    BTW, what coolant are you using? It kinda looks like the ValCool VP Tech that a friend of mine is running. He loves it. I had to go with a full synthetic (ValCool VP920) because I wanted only one type for the grinder and the lathe.
    Last edited by PixMan; 04-08-2011, 08:47 AM.

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  • Circlip
    replied
    Wondered how long it would be before the Super Gloater started to show off his new wares

    Ian Pendle, March 3rd 1989 Muddle Ingineer, an article by Dave Piddington showing toolholder for Myford-Dickson QCTP.

    PM your E-mail if you don't have a copy.

    Regards Ian.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ian B
    replied
    Really nice series of pics, thanks.

    I also have these toolholders, T3 size, so 125mm wide.

    I guess that when the factory makes these, the central groove and both vee grooves are gang milled in one pass. I like your solution of putting the work at 45 degrees in a couple of vee blocks, and using a plain square cutter. Must have been a pain to set up, but well done.

    So good to see a horizontal mill at work. Horizontals seem to live in a separate group of machine tools, along with shapers and radial drills (maybe also planers). Very much out of fashion, but still capable of doing lots of good work in the right hands, and able to remove metal at a high rate.

    How many holders will this end up as?

    Ian

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  • IanPendle
    replied
    Hello Mcgyver,

    Great photos.

    Do you have any dimensioned drawings or sketches that you worked from? I was planning to do the same as you on my much smaller Elliott 181 H?V miller. My holders are the SO size ( length, height, width = 73mm, 38mm, 32 mm). Even if yours are a different size, I would be interested to see the respective angles for the mounting faces.

    Rgds. Ian.

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  • sasquatch
    replied
    Mcgyver,, Thanks for posting a very interesting procedure,, much appreciated!!!

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Mcgyver
    Wish I'd bought them years ago
    I bet! I could only find the expensive ones you mentioned, but saw some other stepped clamps I think could easily be home-grown and should do a similar job. My machine is MUCH smaller than yours, but it was difficult to get a perspective from the photos. A big gulp like that would be too much for my little mini-me mill

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