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  • #31
    Originally posted by elf
    I doubt a liability waver would hold up in court. Can you afford the risk?
    Thats why you pay a lawyer to write it. And hope to never, ever see him again. :P

    I wonder if you could get a lawyer to 'insure' his waver would stand up in coart. Hmmm :P
    Play Brutal Nature, Black Moons free to play highly realistic voxel sandbox game.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Black_Moons
      So... Is my liability waver idea just totaly nuts? Nobody has commented on it. Id say it would have to 'Include death' to be honest.
      Depends on the country your in.

      Pretty much worthless in Canada, you can not give up your right to sue here. It's only value is that a claimant may not think he can sue if he is ignorant of the law. Other countries will have different laws, it may work in the US but I would find out for sure before betting the barn on it.
      The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

      Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

      Southwestern Ontario. Canada

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      • #33
        A lawyer told me a liability waver is not worth the paper it's wrote on here. He said if it goes to a jury trial it can go either way. Juries are fickle and never dependable.

        If DATo does it without insurance or a license it could be a disaster. His best bet is to teach at a school. With people ready to sue at the drop of a hat why would anyone in their right mind want to take that responsibility.

        As I said, one accident could cost your everything you have and then pay for the rest of your life. Those that say, go ahead and do it are not considering the real world issues.

        It's bad enough to run a shop in a residential area without license or insurance but to have people working in your shop or teaching them is just totally foolish.

        Even your best friends or family will sue you so what do you think a stranger will do?
        It's only ink and paper

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        • #34
          I, and some friends of mine have all (at different times and places) run "track days" for motorcyclists at local race tracks. We have always had the waiver of liability, and each participant signed with witnesses as they read ALOUD the simple statement that "I understand this activity could cause serious injury or death and neither I nor my heirs can hold the organizers liable."

          Or something very close to those words.

          Did it absolve us of all liability, risk of lawsuits and give us a pass to be negligent? Certainly not. Though one of us who is a practicing attorney wrote it (and the accompanying procedure for signing it), we knew that a lawyer would dismiss it and take us to court anyhow.

          Just the same we went through it because we figured at least half the people there were dumb enough to think they'd signed away all their rights to sue. And we never did get sued. One of my friends still runs track days for a living, and though there's been no deaths, there have been some serious injuries. Still no litigation. Cool.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by PixMan
            Did it absolve us of all liability, risk of lawsuits and give us a pass to be negligent? Certainly not.

            Just the same we went through it because we figured at least half the people there were dumb enough to think they'd signed away all their rights to sue. And we never did get sued. One of my friends still runs track days for a living, and though there's been no deaths, there have been some serious injuries. Still no litigation. Cool.
            Heh, Hopefuly, those half are the ones who do something stupid and (nearly?) kill themselfs.

            And while I doubt a waver would give you any kinda pass to be negligent, I would at least hope it would hold weight in court if you where not found negligent, but did what you could and it happened anyway.

            Accidents happen, I don't see why people should get a right to sue for accidents. Lots of fun has been lost due to excessive lawsuits
            Play Brutal Nature, Black Moons free to play highly realistic voxel sandbox game.

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            • #36
              Just a little FYI about liability waivers from an actual lawyer.

              http://www.forc.org/pdfs/vol16-ed3-art3.pdf

              Steve

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              • #37
                I say forget the home shop teaching. If you want to continue to teach, go work part time at the local technical college. Where I went to school, part time = <10 hours of class time per week, with full time being 10 hours class time per week. My father taught various vocational classes in middle and high school as well as the college level for 26 years before "retiring." He was rather popular as a teacher bc he rarely gave homework assignments and maximized the time each student spent working with their hands. I should think you could do something similar and thereby work 2-3 afternoons per week in 4 month blocks (semesters).
                "I am, and ever will be, a white-socks, pocket-protector, nerdy engineer -- born under the second law of thermodynamics, steeped in the steam tables, in love with free-body diagrams, transformed by Laplace, and propelled by compressible flow."

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                • #38
                  Thanks to all who responded !!!

                  gary350 - I see your point. I'm sure I could get get enough satisfaction in retired life by working on personal projects alone. By the way, I am very impressed with the creativity and craftsmanship displayed by those bikes you've made.

                  PixMan & uncle pete & tmc_31 - Thanks for your encouragement. I think it would be something to fill my time with and also create an opportunity for making new friends and contacts. I have found a couple of people already who welcome an opportunity to get some professional instruction. It would also present a chance to contribute to the promotion of model engineering as well.

                  alanganes & Chris S & justanengineer - Your suggestion to teach night school is one I had not considered and is very interesting to me though I am afraid I would once again be under the thumb of administrators and told what to do and how it must be done and not have the freedom to do things my own way. This is precisely what I want to avoid in retired life. But your suggestions are certainly worthy of consideration.

                  loose nut & Tony - Creating an online machine shop tutorial with free access is something I plan to do for my present employer. I have extensive experience in creating websites and I think I could do a good job with it. But I could never charge for something like that if I did it on my own. Internet freedom of access to information is something that is a sacred and cherished ideal to me and I totally respect people like 'tubal cain' (though I may not always agree with him) *L* and sites like this very HSM forum for making advice totally free of charge to all visitors. I view internet commercialism as it applies to individual self-improvement as a necessary component of the system but I prefer not to contribute to it. If I do a personal shop tutorial website (and I may) I would make it totally free of charge. But thanks so much for the suggestion !

                  RussZHC & Pix Man - I think it might be easier than you think to get students. I already know several people who would be interested and I learned by running my home based shop business that word of mouth advertising travels fast. uncle pete mentioned that perhaps one or two students might make a good limit per class and that's precisely what I had intended to do. I currently teach two students in the morning and two in the afternoon and repeat this four times for a total of 16 students per year (during teaching season) and that has worked out very well as I can give good, quality instruction to each.

                  Black Moons & elf & Carld & justanengineer & others - You have certainly gotten my attention with your posts regarding liability issues and licensing. I have taught machine shop seasonally for the last 15 years and I have never had an accident on my watch but that doesn't mean I won't have one the day I start classes from my home. As Clint Eastwood might say "Do you feel lucky?" As far as licensing goes, I think if I keep a low profile there won't be any trouble. I live in a very nice suburban neighborhood on a cul-de-sac and when I ran my former business I had people dropping by all the time. But as long as no commercial vehicles like flatbed trailers were going down the street the neighbors just considered what I was doing as none of their business. I have great neighbors by the way and I doubt that any would make a fuss even if they knew what I was doing. About the only way I could get in trouble would be if a student turned me in. SteveF - I really appreciate that pdf you posted regarding liability. It was very illuminating. Thanks so much!

                  baldysm & PTSideshow - Yes, when you open your doors to the public you never know what the wind might blow in. My shop is very secure and in public view as well as well-lit at night and since I do not normally wander far from home I think I would have little to fear from thieves except perhaps a student who feels safe pocketing something when I'm not looking but I doubt that this would happen. Public access would be restricted to the shop and not to my home in general. I have a dedicated washroom for my visitors so there would be no need for them to wander through my home. loose nut - I agree that it is wise to disassociate myself from strangers in such an endeavor but I found that personal associations with my customers when I ran my business was one of the plusses to what I was doing. I met some wonderful people and made some good friends that way. But your warning is understood and well advised too.

                  rohart - I will indeed let you know how it goes but this is a plan for the future and not anytime soon. I will subscribe to this thread and update it if I get any professional (or otherwise) information that I think would be of interest.

                  THANKS ONCE AGAIN TO ALL WHO RESPONDED !!!!

                  EDIT: gwilson - *Shaking his finger at gwilson* ... You, sir, have a moral obligation to pass on the abilities you possess to create such exquisite masterpieces as those I've seen posted by you on this forum. Your work is pure artistry and it would be a damn shame for the world to lose that knowledge when you are gone. May you live a long long time and continue to bring beauty to this sad world through the magnificence of your creations.
                  Last edited by DATo; 08-28-2011, 05:32 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DATo
                    Your suggestion to teach night school is one I had not considered and is very interesting to me though I am afraid I would once again be under the thumb of administrators and told what to do and how it must be done and not have the freedom to do things my own way. .

                    I have a feeling that working as a "retirement job" would change ones' mindset such that you could enjoy what you like doing without too much fear of the administrators. Just think, if they really burnish you too much you can always quit!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by The Artful Bodger
                      I have a feeling that working as a "retirement job" would change ones' mindset such that you could enjoy what you like doing without too much fear of the administrators. Just think, if they really burnish you too much you can always quit!

                      Good point Arty ~~ Reminds me of a story about the philosopher George Santayana. One spring day, during a lecture at Harvard, where he taught, Santayana wandered over to the window and casually looked outside while he was speaking and after awhile he abruptly stopped talking. He stood there just looking out the window for what seemed to the students a long time. Then he turned to the class and said, "You must excuse me. I have an appointment with April." He then walked out and never returned. This has to stand as the most profoundly poetic way of declaring retirement in all history. *LOL*

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by elf
                        I doubt a liability waver would hold up in court. Can you afford the risk?
                        Doesn't matter if is does or doesn't. Ether way you'll go broke paying your lawyer to discuss it in the courtroom.
                        Mike
                        Central Ohio, USA

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                        • #42
                          DATo, I'm sure you will take due consideration on the project and I hope you CYA if you pursue the teaching at home.
                          It's only ink and paper

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                          • #43
                            Over the internet?

                            Originally posted by DATo
                            ... As a result I've been considering teaching machine shop (basically lathe and mill) from my home ...
                            Amusingly the first thing I thought of was you teaching at home over the internet, and absolutely everyone else assumed in person.

                            Over the net has its advantages, such as covering the entire English speaking world, so you could do a very tightly focused class if you want. "gearcutting using EMC2 controller" vs "general machine introduction"

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                            • #44
                              There is only one problem with teaching over the internet or other book reading/computer based training, it just isn't the same as having an instructor right there to help you. It's to bad that the legal eagles have made doing things like what you wanted to do damn near impossible.
                              The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

                              Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

                              Southwestern Ontario. Canada

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by vincemulhollon
                                Amusingly the first thing I thought of was you teaching at home over the internet, and absolutely everyone else assumed in person.
                                So you shouldn't feel alone, I did too!

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