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Need weight for 16in Gould & Eberhardt shaper

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  • Need weight for 16in Gould & Eberhardt shaper

    Hi Everyone,

    I am leaving late tonight on a 4.5 hour trip to pick up this shaper and have spent WAY too much time online trying to find an accurate weight.

    I just don’t have any more time and need to get ready for the trip.

    I realize that the year/SN makes a difference, but I don’t have that info yet.

    My trailer weighs 700+ lbs, & has a 3500 lb. axle. I’ve been near capacity a few times so I know my setup will work fine for 3500GTW.

    If I have to strip the machine & divide it between SUV & trailer or make 2 trips I am prepared to do that too.

    Any help that can be given will be appreciated – big time!

    Thanks for anything you can provide.



    Best wishes to ya’ll.

    Sincerely,

    Jim

    "To invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" - Thomas Edison

    "I've always wanted to get a job as a procrastinator but I keep putting off going out to find one so I guess I'll never realize my life's dream. Frustrating!" - Me

  • #2
    Mild steel weighs .2833 lbs/cu in - we used to estimate molds and machinery at .25 lbs/cu in because it was an easy calculation and allowed for some air space. You can estimate the weight pretty closely if you know the basic cube dimensions.

    Comment


    • #3
      And based on the chair size, I'd say it's all of 3000 lbs, probably more...

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks guys,

        I don't have time to go into the entire story but I moved a 16in Steptoe shaper w/my dad in the 60s. Rented a truck w/2500 lift gate on - it wouldn't budge it. Had to drag it behind a few blocks to our shop.

        Can't do that this time!

        When we moved again rented newer truck in better shape (thought the 1st might have been the problem) same problem.

        Luckily I had built a heavy duty engine hoist & that did it. That's when we could look under it & see all the massive cast webbing inside.

        Shapers are probably one of the heaviest machines for the footprint.
        Best wishes to ya’ll.

        Sincerely,

        Jim

        "To invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" - Thomas Edison

        "I've always wanted to get a job as a procrastinator but I keep putting off going out to find one so I guess I'll never realize my life's dream. Frustrating!" - Me

        Comment


        • #5
          A 16" G&E shaper is a real heavy duty production machine tool. I have a Cincinatti shaper manual. The G&E shapers are a bit heavier than their equivalent Cincinatti. Yours has a vise but not a universal block. I'd guess about 5100 lb. That's based on my Cincinnatti manual for a 16" shaper and adding 300 lb. Better figure on a flat bed truck with a 12,000 lb GVW license or a 6000 lb trailer towed by a 3/4 ton pick-up.

          You do not have enough hauling capacity with the equipment you have. Rent the truck from the big box store or a car trailer and haul it intact. The only readily removable mass on a shaper is the Block and saddle which is about 1/3 the weight.

          Here's what I did when I moved mine 16 miles.

          Success or failure of the trip depends on how you prepair. Expect to spend a couple of hundred dollars remting lifting and tie-down equipment over and above vehicle rental.

          Better have a crane or forklifts on the other end ready to load the shaper on the truck or trailer. two 6000 lb forklifts work best but a 13,000 lb will do if it will take the load out at the fork tips. Look at the weight/moment chart on the dash.

          Take along two 12 ft long 1/2 dia 6 x 19 wire rope pendants with 18" eyes, 8 hunks 1/8" aluminum plate 5" wide x 12" long Use the alum plate across forks and under the corners of the shaper.

          Locate the shaper for forklift access from both sides and vehicle access from the block end. Raise the shaper and slide the wires under. Arrange the wires in a basket hitch. Position two forklifts one on each side of the shaper centered on the shaper's center of gravity. Allow one foot of vehicle clearance betweem the masts of the forlifts. Slip one eye over each fork. Lift to put a little tension on the wire.

          Work a piece of aluminum under the wire over the fork and at the corners of the shaper bottom. This is chafing gear. The aluminum bends under load and protects the wire from the sharp corners.

          With a man on each forklift raise the shaper slightly and test for safety stability etc. Raise the shaper above bed height and back the vehicle under between the forklift masts. Work carefully. Do not allow distractions to hurry you. This is a safe but sensitive phase. Position the bed under the shaper, slip in dunnage (wood to protect the bed). Lower shaper to load the vehicle. Examine for load positioning and spring deflection. If all is OK lower the load completey. Remove thew wiers leaving them in place.

          Bolt on stops, tie down, etc. You need stops to prevent shifting back and forth and side to side. Ideally this would with fitted timber braced against solid vehicle structure. Second best is chain and binders. Do not skimp. Ski rope and clothesline is inadequate. You can rent all you need from U haul or whatever. Better to have it and not need it all than to not have what you need.

          Test the secured load by accellerating quickly for a second then hitting the brakes hard. If an observer confirms no load movement you are safe for the trip.
          Last edited by Forrest Addy; 09-23-2011, 06:12 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Forrest Addy
            I'd guess about 5100 lb. That's based on my Cincinnatti manual for a 16" shaper and adding 300 lb. Better figure on a flat bed truck with a 12,000 lb GVW license or a 6000 lb trailer towed by a 3/4 ton pick-up.
            I agree, and I think Forrest's recommendation is a minimum. Reminds me of something I came across a few years back. I was driving along a remote secondary road in Maine and there parked on the side of the road was a trailer at best suited for a heavy lawn tractor with a pretty big horizontal milling machine on it. Not a soul to be seen anywhere. I've often wondered what the outcome of that was.

            Comment


            • #7
              Have a G&E at work very similar and it weighs without the vice #4300 according to our crane scale.
              I just need one more tool,just one!

              Comment


              • #8
                BIG thanks to all so far!

                BIG thanks to all so far!

                Hi Everyone,

                Just got home w/bigger double axle trailer - 56 miles ea. way to get it but it allows me to breath easier.

                Still lots of little details to take care of & gather all my rigging stuff etc. I moved my entire shop across country & I still have all my chains, binders straps etc.

                It's 7:30 PM & I have to eat something and get back to work. I'll probably be up 'till after midnight at least & I'll check back as I can.

                Sunday night the trailer should be back to the rental & I'll have the time to go into the whole story/saga.

                Person who just looked at it this week said he found 3000 lbs. for the weight somewhere on the internet & that just didn't seem like enough to me. That's what started me wasting my time this morning.

                Ya'll are coming in closer to what I am thinking.

                I'll have better photos when I get back too.

                Many, many thanks to ya'll.

                Last edited by jhe.1973; 09-23-2011, 11:40 PM.
                Best wishes to ya’ll.

                Sincerely,

                Jim

                "To invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" - Thomas Edison

                "I've always wanted to get a job as a procrastinator but I keep putting off going out to find one so I guess I'll never realize my life's dream. Frustrating!" - Me

                Comment


                • #9
                  My 20" G&E with similar apointments like universal knee, weighs in at a tad under 5K, hope that helps.
                  James Kilroy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Shaper in my shop now, YAY

                    Hi Everyone,

                    I DEEPLY thank everyone that contributed.

                    Ya’ll helped validate my gut feeling that this shaper had to weigh more than the 3000 lb figure the last person interested in it quoted.

                    Special thanks to Forrest for his detailed and thorough reply. Your mention of timber was the jog I needed to come up w/my plan.

                    There is still more to the story but it will have to wait a day or two (I’m exhausted), but I wanted to get ya’ll some satisfaction to know that your suggestions helped me make a safe & rather easy trip.





                    Luckily there were 2 - 5/8 holes in the front rail of the trailer frame. I used grade 8 bolts for the 2 angle brackets to hold chain shackles to use w/the chain & binders I already had from moving stuff before.

                    I really wanted to go w/the pretty blue ski rope I got last Christmas. My wife knows me pretty well so she locks up her clothesline. So I had to settle for the chain & binders.

                    Just picking on ya Forrest, my friend. You couldn’t have known that I have moved a lot of heavy stuff through the years & had what it takes. Except, this shaper showed up right when my wrecker has a leaky wheel cylinder & I haven’t had time to fix it. Plus, my own double axle equipment trailer is full of ‘valuable’ projects yet to be.

                    Right off the trailer:



                    Coming in the shop:



                    I’ll get more posted in the next few days.

                    My wife & I had a nice dinner in town when I returned the trailer & the shaper is inside my shop. Life’s good once more.

                    Thanks again guys!
                    Last edited by jhe.1973; 09-27-2011, 04:12 PM.
                    Best wishes to ya’ll.

                    Sincerely,

                    Jim

                    "To invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" - Thomas Edison

                    "I've always wanted to get a job as a procrastinator but I keep putting off going out to find one so I guess I'll never realize my life's dream. Frustrating!" - Me

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It’s official, shaper weighs 4442 lbs complete!

                      Hi Everyone,

                      I moved the shaper to its final position and while it was up on rollers/timbers I slipped my floor scale under it.





                      The scale shows 4145 but that is w/o the 265 lb. swivel base vise & tee bolts. Throw in the table support, tool tray & misc. handles etc. and you get the grand total posted above.

                      I took several photos as I unloaded and moved it inside to post here but I think I need your input again.

                      Forrest’s excellent & detailed response is far & away the best way to do this. Every step away from such an approach brings additional risks that have to be kept a close eye on.

                      It seems clear that he was understandably concerned that I might not be aware of what is/was involved. The 2 shots below are of the extra MINIMUM tools that I took w/me as I piled them up while unloading. If a person doesn’t have at least this type of equipment this job should be hired out.





                      As I was paying attention to the steps I was taking, thinking of posting them here, I realized that so many details, that have become automatic for me, are the result of years of experience. I started learning this way of moving heavy things from my dad over 40 years ago.

                      What I want to avoid conveying is the idea that with a few simple hand tools anyone can just rent a U-haul & take a move like this lightly. Pun intended!

                      Overconfidence w/moving machines can quickly turn dangerous or deadly.

                      Again, as Forrest said, “Success or failure depends on how you prepare”.

                      Let me know what you think.

                      Should I post more here, start a new thread, or forget it & crawl quietly back to my cave.
                      Best wishes to ya’ll.

                      Sincerely,

                      Jim

                      "To invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" - Thomas Edison

                      "I've always wanted to get a job as a procrastinator but I keep putting off going out to find one so I guess I'll never realize my life's dream. Frustrating!" - Me

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A couple things I could add: An extention cord and a beefy 3/8 corded drill (battery drill is OK if its husky and you take along a couple of charged batteries), Irwin boring bits including one capable of counterboring for the nuts and washers, suitable sized all-thread, nuts and washers, a small chain saw gas or electric, a circular saw, plywood, an assortment of constructionn screws and drivers, a couple of 1 ton chain hoists, shackles and grab hooks to link up chains where needed, a hacksaw, a pair of sawhrses, clamps, legs of a few pairs of old jeans or strips of carpet for chafing gear, mechanic's tools to remover sheet metal, pastial dismantling, jacks, the list can go on for some time.

                        Yeah, a safe move might require a lot of stuff you better fetch. If you don't need it so what? If you do and don't have it, that can mean a day ofr scrounging or many dollars of local one-time expense for stuff you already have at home 200 miles away.

                        By the way, some who look in here are expert at moving heavy weights or whatever the topic may be. Many more are experienced, but the vast majority are inexperienced. It's for the inexperienced I write. If I suggest you load a machine on a 6000 lb trailer that's plenty of info for an expert but it omits the 50 steps and the dozens of equipment items and the dozens of alternative etc between the machine (or example) on site and the machine loaded and ready to transport.

                        Rigging is a skilled trade and machine tool moving is a specialised application of rigging in general. You don't can't rely on ignorance and enthusiasm. That only works in movies.

                        A successful machine tool move requires you to understand the physics, materials, equipment, shortcuts to take and to avoid, the step by step planning, rehearsing an unskilled crew, the importance of a walk through, etc. As the instigator of a move you are respinsible for the safety of the job and have to be sure the plan is in place, everyone assisting you understands it, and your crew is vigilent for anything that can go wrong. Omitting some vital step may result in accident, damage, injury, or death.

                        When I offer advice it's generally broken down to the basics so the lurkers and inexperienced looking in on the thread can follow along. Hopefully, some of it will stick and cause a neiphyte machine tool mover to think twice before he jumps into what may be hazardous to his health or his basement steps.

                        Finally, no beer until the whole job is done. I've noticed a decline in safety awarewness after one beer in people othewise perfectly safe to drive a car. Emphacise this in the safety meeting that precedes every intelligently run cooperative activity.
                        Last edited by Forrest Addy; 09-27-2011, 09:55 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Right on Forrest!

                          Originally posted by Forrest Addy
                          Yeah, a safe move might require a lot of stuff you better fetch. If you don't need it so what? If you do and don't have it, that can mean a day ofr scrounging or many dollars of local one-time expense for stuff you already have at home 200 miles away.

                          By the way, some who look in here are expert at moving heavy weights or whatever the topic may be. Many more are experienced, but the vast majority are inexperienced. It's for the inexperienced I write. If I suggest you load a machine on a 6000 lb trailer that's plenty of info for an expert but it omits the 50 steps and the dozens of equipment items and the dozens of alternative etc between the machine (or example) on site and the machine loaded and ready to transport.

                          Rigging is a skilled trade and machine tool moving is a specialised application of rigging in general. You don't can't rely on ignorance and enthusiasm. That only works in movies.

                          A successful machine tool move requires you to understand the physics, materials, equipment, shortcuts to take and to avoid, the step by step planning, rehearsing an unskilled crew, the importance of a walk through, etc. As the instigator of a move you are respinsible for the safety of the job and have to be sure the plan is in place, everyone assisting you understands it, and your crew is vigilent for anything that can go wrong. Omitting some vital step may result in accident, damage, injury, or death.

                          When I offer advice it's generally broken down to the basics so the lurkers and inexperienced looking in on the thread can follow along. Hopefully, some of it will stick and cause a neiphyte machine tool mover to think twice before he jumps into what may be hazardous to his health or his basement steps.
                          Once the rigging is finished I still wasn't.

                          This shaper was located near an interstate in a rural area & late at night there was no congestion to take into consideration.

                          Once under way, I stopped w/in 15 - 20 miles and felt the hubs, tires & brake drums for heat. No excessive heat, but I still dropped my speed to the 58 mph I mentioned. It pulled at 65 easily, but the front tires on the trailer were warmer than the rears. Not much, but why chance it.

                          Sure I could have relied on the 2000 lb. rating of each tire, but I'll take the extra step of verifying.

                          Every gas or rest stop & I was feeling the tires & hubs for warmth.
                          Best wishes to ya’ll.

                          Sincerely,

                          Jim

                          "To invent you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" - Thomas Edison

                          "I've always wanted to get a job as a procrastinator but I keep putting off going out to find one so I guess I'll never realize my life's dream. Frustrating!" - Me

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There's another point when pulling trailers with top-heavy loads like most machine tools. The trailer can wallow. The distribution of masses and elasticity in a vehicle towing a trailer can above certain speed induce a wallow (or technically a roll coupled oscillation). A rig undersized for the GC height, without rear anti-sway bars, poor shocks, soft tires, weenie trailers, etc are most vulnerable. RCO occurs at a critical speed and if the road is smooth can be delayed to considerably above a critical speed. Once established above critical speed the oscillation can increase to where it's impossible to control the rig.

                            The load is safe enough at a lower speed but over the critical speed it can be deadly. When it happens hope it happens going uphill. The safest way to control it is not be steer with or counter to the oscillation but by keeping the rig under the best control possible by steering slowly and gently while slowing the rig with gentle braking.

                            It's best to explore the rig's stability before you get to crowded roads and highway speeds. When you first start, challenge the rig stability by increasing the speed to say 25 and giving the steering a firm left and right S turn. If the load follows tamely you're oK for that speed. Increse speed 5 MPH and challenge again, etc. You WILL know when RCO is about to strike.

                            Rigs intended for hauling high CG loads are never troubled by ROC. It's the weenie hauling equipment you and I can afford that may give us grief. If we stick to back roads and streets and take our time we can get our heavily laden rigs home safe and sound. It aint bold defiance of physics and pools of blood that identifies the hairy chested man. It's using limited resources to bring home the bacon (or shaper) on schedule without drama.
                            Last edited by Forrest Addy; 09-27-2011, 11:09 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Trailer

                              Also, when loading the trailer, if you put more weight ahead of the axle and less weight behind, that goes a long way toward keeping the trailer tracking straight. With the larger percentage of the weight behind the axle, it will fishtail fairly easily. I had that happen once and it almost flipped the truck over before I got it shut down. After talking to numerous people and studying the situation this is the conclusion I came to. Since then, I have always loaded a trailer weight forward and haven't had any more problems.

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