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  • saltmine
    replied
    Even though Mcgyver is totally right about the entitlist people who enlist "feel good" people to run around and, in my opinion, disrupt the general continuum with their lame suggestions (like telling the kids to turn off the water between the lather and rinse in the showers...to save, apparently, water)
    I'm sure that many of us have either seen or been a victim of these "do gooders" at one time or another. Sometimes these people can be more harmful than good.

    When I was working, we had a County Safety Officer. His job was to make sure none of us was getting ourselves killed as we went about our daily assignments. But, somewhere along the line, his purpose was politically meddled with and derailed. I remember the day he came by, halted all activities in the shop, and called us together to announce some very important "changes" in the department. (it was bad enough that he stopped everything ). Once he had our attention, he calmly stated that we were all being issued safety gear, which will be worn all of the time during normal working hours. He pulled out safety glasses, bump caps, back supports, kidney belts, gloves, steel toed shoes, jock straps, suspenders, and long sleeved shirts. The full suit of "safety gear" probably cost the County $1000 per person...so we were already spending money we didn't have. True, we were safer, but at what cost? Safety glasses were prone to fogging, bump caps were causing neck compression injuries, gloves were a pure annoyance due to their poor durability, and getting "suited up" each morning was costing the County an hour of each employee's day...But, the "County Safety Officer" got an award, and a raise....
    Our department supervisor had to get into the act, too. A lot of our Road Department trucks were diesel powered. When the cost of diesel fuel went off the charts, he suggested we switch the trucks over to "red" diesel fuel...good idea, except for the fact that "red" is not taxed and is for off road use only. It also carries a sizable penalty and fines for using it in road vehicles... Somebody pointed it out to him before he made a complete ass of himself...But, not to be discouraged, he submitted a rule change requiring the Road Department trucks be shut off whenever the crews were out of the trucks...to save fuel....Good idea...except in the summer around here. The trucks had been left running to provide relief from the furnace-like heat out on the job-sites. If one of the crews started to show signs of heat stress, they would be placed in the air conditioned truck so they could recover, somewhat. After four of the Road Crew employees were hauled off to the hospital suffering from heat-stroke, one almost died, the "idea" was quietly dropped.
    This same supervisor was also responsible for one Sheriff's Deputy getting killed, driving on badly worn tires, that should have been changed, but were not...."to save money".. He also had a mechanic work in the wrecked vehicle yard for almost a full day, @ $22 per hour, in an attempt to find a replacement bearing (used) for a patrol car....In the end, the mechanic didn't find a usable bearing, but told the supervisor that a new bearing was only $18 at the auto parts store....A living example of somebody tripping over a gold bar to pick up a penny.
    Government in action. I suppose there's a "place" for all of these idiots. Had they not known somebody in government or gotten elected, they would never be able to support themselves or their families in the "real" world...

    I think this guy went on to develop and market battery-less, solar powered flashlights.
    Last edited by saltmine; 12-21-2011, 12:18 PM.

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  • aboard_epsilon
    replied
    Originally posted by J Tiers

    As for turbines not turning....When I drive up 39 in Illinois, the majo
    well my turbines seem to be making up-there close to the rated output today

    look at North Hoyle ..North Wales 48 Mw ..and rated for 60Mw

    also in the same area Rhyl-flats seems to be making over the rated value 90.1 and rated for 90


    http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/206488...e-energy-live/

    yesrterday they were only making a tenth ..so were most ..seems to be only a bit of extra wind today ..wonder if they are jiggling with the figures cause ..my link must have sent a lot of people looking there .

    all the best.markj

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  • A.K. Boomer
    replied
    Originally posted by Orrin
    The latest development in wind power is gearless units.

    As for windmills killing birds, I'd wager that picture windows kill more than windmills do. The windows on our house, alone, kill at least a dozen birds a year. As far as that goes, it is a proven fact that more birds are killed by automobiles than are harvested by hunters.

    Outlaw picture windows! Automobiles!

    Humbug.

    Orrin

    Ditto that! Boy - there is one thing that is all too common nowadays and that is people who have the inability to take their thinking a step further -- I like windmills cuz their "in your face" with the damage (if any - that they do)
    So before anybody goes spouting off about a few dead birds please give us all the stats on how many birds (or eggs or all kinds of other critters esp. frogs and salamanders) perish due to acid rain (coal)- or how many fish die getting chopped up by turbines or can't spawn cuz they don't now how to climb ladders - or shell out cuz their water temps have changed or on and on - and what about some of the other method's --- really want to talk nuclear ? you sure you want to go there? whaaaaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaaa someone got hit by a piece of ice from a windmill ------ big fuquing deal...
    want to talk JAPAN?
    grow up people - All forms of producing electricity are detrimental to our health and our planet and the creatures that are forced to share this place with our ignorant selves... Coal is nasty business and responsible for an unbelievable amount of carnage -------- but people like the out of site out of mind thing, ohh it's OK ------- yeah just store that spent radio active material under my house, as long as I don't see it im good

    A good well designed well ran windfarm is an alternative - it's not perfect, but like any of them they have their pro's and con's, deal with it...

    One thing windfarms are incapable of is wiping out entire towns, states or even countrys,

    something nuclear is proven to not be able to claim - something hydro cannot (due to damn failures) and something even coal plants cannot totally claim (when their slurry mounds give way)...
    Last edited by A.K. Boomer; 12-21-2011, 11:31 AM.

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  • Black Forest
    replied
    At this point it looks like we have sucessfully blocked the building of the wind turbines at this location. We have our springs for our property very close to where they want to erect the turbines. Today we had that area declared a water protection area so no building is possible.

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  • tdmidget
    replied
    Originally posted by J Tiers
    You may WORK there, but it don't make you an xspurt , apparently....

    I amn't one myself.......... but I DO know that you cannot heat the boiler plant up really fast, or it stresses the water tubes, the insulation and structure, and risks damage.....

    And I also know that a steam turbine expands when hot, you can't slam on steam to a cold turbine either..... not unless you want to risk wiping the blades or other undesirable stuff..... such as slugs of condensate hitting the blades at speed.....

    I have been told that a realistic warm-up from cold takes at least several hours or more, depending on size of the plant.... You seem to be quoting 24 hours. I don't know the details on that, but for sure the plant ain't ready to go at full rating from cold like starting the car.....

    You seem to be AGREEING with me and then calling me ignorant, which looks like meaning YOU are as "ignorant" as me.

    A gas turbine can warm up to full power in a few minutes, I am told.... that makes sense, and is why they are used for peaking.

    Maybe YOUR plant is at full power most of the time, but others are not.

    As for the waiting, and night shift Bull-puckey...... Did you somehow FORGET that I said STORAGE is the key to making wind and solar work?

    Apparently you did.

    Both wind and solar tend to be available in large amounts or not at all.... if you cannot store the power, then you must put up with variability and unavailability.....

    If you CAN store the power, now you have it when you want it, and there is no need to put up with variability or power grid disturbance as has been alleged in other posts to be the doom of wind power.

    I actually do NOT THINK wind power is really viable yet..... but I DO see that it WILL be, in the amounts that are available, which is at most 20% of current usage. 20% is 20%, nothing to sneeze at.

    Do you want to have to develop it on short notice when there is a crisis? Or would you rather have it ready to go when needed?

    Thermal solar seems to be reasonably viable now, PV is still hostage to the high cost of cells. We have enough area to use for that to power all we ever need, according to studies I have seen.

    And a thorium nuclear program would power us for hundreds of years, no carbon footprint or whatever..... heck, just actually USING the energy in teh existing nuclear fuel, instead of calling it "waste" and burying it instead of re-processing it.... that would last us a hundred or more.

    it ain't like nuclear is cost-viable now..... not the incredibly stupid way these idiot americans do it...... it could be, if done right. And it could be a heck of a lot safer than it is now also. Every plant we have is a Fukushima waiting to happen. But they don't have to be.

    A bit of changing of the electric rates and you will be howling for some of these alternatives...... regretting that you voted in the folks who hate them and publicly state that they want to tear down every single one of the wind turbines.
    A turbine must be brought to full power slowly if it is cold. There is a lot of mass that will expand as it warms up. The idea is to let it all warm up at the same time so that as it grows the relationship of the parts is maintained. If the rotor expanded faster than the shell, clearance would be lost and there might be contact. If a unit has run recently, say 48 hours, it will be fairly hot and could be running rather quickly.
    You are right about nuclear. Right now it is the cheapest power that we have, at least in the newer plants. New reactor designs which are held back by the irrational fear of plutonium would be even cheaper.

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  • Willy
    replied
    BTW, I do NOT think electric cars are any viable answer. Not without range and re-fueling time equal to a gas or diesel car..... You cannot take teh bus everywhere, and can't even drive from St Louis to the Chicago suburbs in an electric car.
    While I agree, research and development has to be done now in order to assure viable energy sources exist for future generations.
    Your comment above is exactly why those that are opposed to subsidies for wind power do so...lack of usable storage.

    You say that fossil fuels have an advantage because of it's development and use for so very many years. But lets face it, although we have done some very wonderful and marvelous things with electricity over the last 200 years, storage has not been one which stands out at this time...yet.
    Until this hurdle has been dealt with, subsidy money for this industry can be better utilized elsewhere.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by Mcgyver
    along with what Saltmine was saying, most environmental initiatives are driven by people wanting to 'feel good' about themselves. Some twit comes around and tells kids in school to turn the shower off between lather and rinse....Politicians pick up on this human need to feel good about themselves and the whole thing becomes little to do with fact and just to do optics and manipulation.
    "optics "..... yep, that is what most of the recycling drives are..... when there is no market, as for instance recently when the chinese stopped buying recycled cardboard, the stuff goes into the landfill, or sits around rotting into uselessness.

    "Saving water"...... when we have the largest river on teh continent going by, we have to "save" more and more water, as if we lived in the desert.... We only "borrow" it anyhow, and if we don't, the same thing happens, it goes down river to the ocean, and is "wasted" by fresh water getting diluted in the salt. No "saving" involved.

    These sorts of things should be imposed on teh areas that CAUSE the problem..... tax L.A. for using all the water on the West coast...... don't force all others to live as if they were in L.A.

    P.V. shingles..... recycling...... cycle to work..... re-use bags..... turn off the shower for a few seconds....

    All "optics".... not bad things to do, but utterly meaningless in the big picture, and actually shift the "blame" onto the people who are NOT at fault..... And some can be impossible... cycling to work is hard with 4" of snow and ice on the ground

    Individuals do not dump hundreds of tons of pollutants. Individuals do not pollute teh air, large industries do, and we have no say in how they make things for us.....

    A few tiny "tree hugger", "Birkenstock moment" actions do not fix problems.... and even the environmentalists agree they do not... it is all "optics" and "consciousness raising"..... as the can gets kicked down the road.

    Actually putting in place alternatives for major power generation is at least a positive step with immediate and visible results.

    As for turbines not turning....When I drive up 39 in Illinois, the majority of the turbines are turning..... most of the ones that are not are obviously still being built.




    Originally posted by lost_cause
    electric cars will require a battery replacement at some point that will cost more than the car is worth, thus making its lifespan shorter than a conventional combustion engine car, causing more cars to be made sooner, which can't be green. lithium doesn't grow on trees. there are limited deposits in the world, so how long will that last, and how unhealthy and unfriendly to the earth is the mining required to get it?
    Interesting argument.... WRONG, but interesting.

    Most of the materials in a storage battery are not used up... they are not "transmuted" into some other element.....

    Unless you advocate calling batteries "Hazmat", and requiring them by law to be buried in expensive containers to safely hold them for 10,000 years (like good, usable nuclear fuel), recycling the materials into NEW batteries would seem to be a sensible plan..... And it has to take less energy overall than mining, transporting, refining and so forth.

    BTW, I do NOT think electric cars are any viable answer. Not without range and re-fueling time equal to a gas or diesel car..... You cannot take teh bus everywhere, and can't even drive from St Louis to the Chicago suburbs in an electric car.

    Even in the city, ONE errand by bus takes as long as 10 by private vehicle. Buses required me to use 3 hours beginning at 4 AM to get to work by 7, when it was an 18 minute drive, in traffic. That is a useless, worthless, unworkable, frankly idiotic and ridiculous alleged alternative". Even an electric car would be better, but 40 miles range as has been common, would strand folks in any decent sized metro area.

    Businesses and places in general in this area are too intrinsically spread out, inherently located for auto users, to ever be able to be used by folks having only limited range electric vehicles that take hours or days to recharge.... or buses, for that matter. It is best to admit that, and focus on ways to handle the "situation on the ground", instead of pretending it can be fixed by cycling to work.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 12-21-2011, 10:25 AM.

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  • ikdor
    replied
    What has not been touched upon is the fact that subsidies can jumpstart your industry. Denmark for instance has heavily subsidised windmills and because of it the Danish company Vestas is now the biggest player in Europe. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'll hazard a guess that their tax on windmill exports is paying for a large part of their subsidy program. (Total tax payed by Vestas in 2010 is 82 million euro)

    By getting there first and grabbing all the knowledge and patents, you can generate quite a healthy industry.
    If you start thinking about renewable energy by the time there is price parity, you'll be stuck paying royalties to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

    Igor
    Last edited by ikdor; 12-21-2011, 10:17 AM.

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  • Deja Vu
    replied
    I'm still waiting for that pill to take for longevity so as to further witness energy sources "a, b, and c" being replaced by enrgy sources "e, f, and g". "d", the wind source has come now and yes they will eventually be dismantled. Journey to the central portions of the Earth! Extract that abundant source.

    We have to give up a little something now for those of future generations. I live in a "vacation land". There are wind towers to the south, but the wealthy owners of the north, migrants from Chicago, came in and made true the huge billboard "Keep Door County Green...Bring Money" that adorned the major road into this area. They object to any such "unsightly" form of energy generators(wind) and of course prevent them from being built. Mostly these are summer home owners with the wives looking for something to do by opening little "homespun" shops to provide something for the "vacationers" to spend their money on.
    Having lived here all my life I would welcome wind towers here. I would have loved rushing past them as I ran over the sand dunes while avoiding the poison ivy along the paths. Now all the land has been bought up and privatized with only small access points to the shores of lake Michigan.
    More big power lines on poles rivaling the wind towers pass through the area to supply more power to the northern peninsula.
    An attempt was also made to erect the towers off the shores into lake Michigan, but the "view" couldn't be compromised.

    Note: The general "gist' of my comments may change upon feeling the sun shining through the morning window.
    Last edited by Deja Vu; 12-21-2011, 03:39 AM.

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  • Black Forest
    replied
    I already have an agreement with the town that if this project goes ahead the company will be required to post a 250,000 Euro bond for each one of the turbines. The bond is for removal of the turbines if deemed necessary.

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  • dp
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Forest
    We were just informed by the town that they are considering building three windturbines very close to us. 800meters away from us. We own all the land around us but the town owns the land on top of the hill where they want to build these things.
    Take detailed pictures of the area. When the machines are abandoned (about 12 years) somebody has to restore the property. Usually the land owner. When that happens you have the pictures of what it looked like before.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by tdmidget
    J tiers, you ignorance is showing. Steam plants do not "keep the water hot". These are water tube boilers. They produce steam almost instantaneously . The turbine is on turning gear if it is running condition. Full power in 24 hours or so. But the way it works is this: picture a plant I work at frequently. 2 755 MW units. 3 units 125-200MW ea. The 755 MW run every minute they are available. The smaller units on line as required. However all 5 are running every minute available. Why? It is the cheapest power other than Nuclear. It is there when you need it. You can count on it. The EPA wants to shut them down. They burn that nasty old coal y'see. Now our economy is in the toilet. When (if) it recovers and industry, machine shops, for example need power to go to full production where will it come from? Are you going to pay people to stand at the machines waiting for the wind to blow? I guess night shifts are out of the question. These things are nice when they work but that is not often enough to run a business or keep your kids warm. Your tax money should not got to unworkable crap enterprises to be syphoned off to political asswipes. Or is this what you want?

    You may WORK there, but it don't make you an xspurt , apparently....

    I amn't one myself.......... but I DO know that you cannot heat the boiler plant up really fast, or it stresses the water tubes, the insulation and structure, and risks damage.....

    And I also know that a steam turbine expands when hot, you can't slam on steam to a cold turbine either..... not unless you want to risk wiping the blades or other undesirable stuff..... such as slugs of condensate hitting the blades at speed.....

    I have been told that a realistic warm-up from cold takes at least several hours or more, depending on size of the plant.... You seem to be quoting 24 hours. I don't know the details on that, but for sure the plant ain't ready to go at full rating from cold like starting the car.....

    You seem to be AGREEING with me and then calling me ignorant, which looks like meaning YOU are as "ignorant" as me.

    A gas turbine can warm up to full power in a few minutes, I am told.... that makes sense, and is why they are used for peaking.

    Maybe YOUR plant is at full power most of the time, but others are not.

    As for the waiting, and night shift Bull-puckey...... Did you somehow FORGET that I said STORAGE is the key to making wind and solar work?

    Apparently you did.

    Both wind and solar tend to be available in large amounts or not at all.... if you cannot store the power, then you must put up with variability and unavailability.....

    If you CAN store the power, now you have it when you want it, and there is no need to put up with variability or power grid disturbance as has been alleged in other posts to be the doom of wind power.

    I actually do NOT THINK wind power is really viable yet..... but I DO see that it WILL be, in the amounts that are available, which is at most 20% of current usage. 20% is 20%, nothing to sneeze at.

    Do you want to have to develop it on short notice when there is a crisis? Or would you rather have it ready to go when needed?

    Thermal solar seems to be reasonably viable now, PV is still hostage to the high cost of cells. We have enough area to use for that to power all we ever need, according to studies I have seen.

    And a thorium nuclear program would power us for hundreds of years, no carbon footprint or whatever..... heck, just actually USING the energy in teh existing nuclear fuel, instead of calling it "waste" and burying it instead of re-processing it.... that would last us a hundred or more.

    it ain't like nuclear is cost-viable now..... not the incredibly stupid way these idiot americans do it...... it could be, if done right. And it could be a heck of a lot safer than it is now also. Every plant we have is a Fukushima waiting to happen. But they don't have to be.

    A bit of changing of the electric rates and you will be howling for some of these alternatives...... regretting that you voted in the folks who hate them and publicly state that they want to tear down every single one of the wind turbines.

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  • x39
    replied
    Originally posted by justanengineer
    If the government offered you free money, would you not take it?
    "FREE" money??? LMFAO! Don't you mean someone else's money?

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  • tdmidget
    replied
    J tiers, you ignorance is showing. Steam plants do not "keep the water hot". These are water tube boilers. They produce steam almost instantaneously . The turbine is on turning gear if it is running condition. Full power in 24 hours or so. But the way it works is this: picture a plant I work at frequently. 2 755 MW units. 3 units 125-200MW ea. The 755 MW run every minute they are available. The smaller units on line as required. However all 5 are running every minute available. Why? It is the cheapest power other than Nuclear. It is there when you need it. You can count on it. The EPA wants to shut them down. They burn that nasty old coal y'see. Now our economy is in the toilet. When (if) it recovers and industry, machine shops, for example need power to go to full production where will it come from? Are you going to pay people to stand at the machines waiting for the wind to blow? I guess night shifts are out of the question. These things are nice when they work but that is not often enough to run a business or keep your kids warm. Your tax money should not got to unworkable crap enterprises to be syphoned off to political asswipes. Or is this what you want?

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    The argument of subsidies is somewhat specious.....

    Wind or solar require a higher electric rate to make them pay well. This is hardly surprising, since the rates as-is are "optimized" for coal fired and similar fossil fuel thermal plants which have had 200 years of development of the prime mover, and over 100 of the generation side.

    Not to mention that the fuel is "free", the cost is merely for the minor trouble of "picking it up off the ground".

    Anyone who does NOT think that rates will have to go up, wind, solar etc notwithstanding, has their head in the sand.

    And, WHEN (not if) rates DO go up, there will be wind power in-place, and the industry required to both provide, and maintain the facilities. Absent the subsidies, it would probably take 5 to 10 years to build up to any significant replacement of fossil fuel thermal with wind.

    Originally posted by GadgetBuilder

    Wind power is also a major technical problem in that it destabilizes the grid. Fluctuations in power delivered by wind are relatively rapid, requiring large and rapid adjustments by other grid power sources to compensate. In Denmark they can generate up to 20% of their power from wind. Unfortunately, their grid isn't large enough to handle the inherent fluctuations so they must sell this power to Russia whose grid is large enough to handle the instability.

    Further, because wind is an unreliable source of power it requires a backup source for times when the wind dies. So you have wind's extra capital cost above the original fuel powered facility's capital cost. Thus, the only real saving from wind is in fuel expended -- and wind typically delivers less than 30% of rated capability.
    All of the above issues are storage-related, and storage fixes all of them. That is inherent with any "get it when the getting is good" type source.

    As for the "delivers less than 30%" argument...... you need to be careful how you use that one.... it will turn and bite you.

    Steam power plants have the same exact issue, but in reverse..... they CANNOT deliver full power, because most of the time full power is not required. So steam plants operate at a low percent load, very inefficiently, or are "banked" just keeping the water hot, waiting for the "peak" power requirement.

    Gas turbine plants, and pumped storage are used to even out the load, so the storage issue, AND the capacity usage issue exist with steam plants also.

    In effect, the power company must maintain a large amount of excess capacity in order to handle peaks of load. And they must also burn fuel in much of this excess capacity just to maintain standby capability, since a steam plant cannot be turned on from cols easily. In fact, a steam plant is DAMAGED by being warmed and cooled a lot.... they are best when hot all the time.

    Sound familiar? I thought so.....

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