Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

O/T LPG/CNG powered vehicles

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by justanengineer
    Thanks for remaining a gentleman Willy. I didnt intend that to be insulting in the least, and on second glance my earlier comment was rather harsh.
    ..............
    .........
    Hey most of that stuff usually goes over my head, but I certainly did not take your remarks to be the least bit insulting.
    Besides you've already covered your ass with the disclaimer in your sig. line.

    I as well did not mean to imply that Cummins Westport was the be-all and end-all in the heavy duty engine market insofar as gaseous fueled engines is concerned. I only chose them based on their public presence due to there on-highway applications.

    The technological prowess displayed by your 'color' has certainly impressed me over the years. I have personally experienced countless hours of admirable service from both camps during my career and am not at all discounting the engineering capabilities of either one. Or any other major players for that matter that choose to direct their engineering talent in this direction.
    Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
    Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

    Location: British Columbia

    Comment


    • #17
      My last work truck (before the one I have now) was a 2008 Silverado that was CNG/gasoline. We didn't have a CNG station at the time (you might ask why we got the truck with dual fuel, we use GSA motor pool vehicles and don't get a choice) so the load of CNG it came with was all it ever got. The truck changed from CNG to gasoline while I was driving it and I didn't even notice. My only gripe was that the CNG tank was in the bed, and took up 30% of it.

      Comment


      • #18
        I read somewhere that NG and propane converted diesels have to have about 10% diesel fuel injected into the cylinders in the conventional manner as an ignition source. This is needed because the fuels' auto ignition temp is higher than than that reached by the air in the cylinder head at full compression in a conventional diesel.

        RWO

        Comment


        • #19
          There were a number of propane powered vehicles around here - they were very popular on 1/2 tons to 3 tons carbureted engines. Propane conversions werre not done when all those models started fuel injection.

          Everybody I talked to love the propane and especially loved the lower price. The only 'negative' is they are hard to start in the cold (-30c , -22f). Everybody started with gasoline, warned the engine, then flipped over to propane.

          Comment


          • #20
            Willy - If youre ever in the midwest, the first beverage is on me.

            Originally posted by RWO
            I read somewhere that NG and propane converted diesels have to have about 10% diesel fuel injected into the cylinders in the conventional manner as an ignition source. This is needed because the fuels' auto ignition temp is higher than than that reached by the air in the cylinder head at full compression in a conventional diesel.

            RWO
            It depends on the hardware used in your "conversion." If your conversion is purely adding a gas "train" (regulators, shutoffs, mixers etc), then yes you would need a diesel pilot for ignition. If youre willing to/can swap pistons to lower the compression ratio, and can bore the heads for spark plugs in addition to the aforementioned gas train, then you can run 100% gas. The latter is the method of choice for the majority of the heavy duty "factory" conversions/builds by the various companies.
            "I am, and ever will be, a white-socks, pocket-protector, nerdy engineer -- born under the second law of thermodynamics, steeped in the steam tables, in love with free-body diagrams, transformed by Laplace, and propelled by compressible flow."

            Comment


            • #21
              I would like to see the US Government invest in expanding the Natural Gas infrastructure to have it available in gas stations everywhere.

              Then, everyone could save on fuel. We would use our own energy instead of importing it. It would reduce pollution. It seems like an interesting way for the gov. to spend money on something which might really work.

              Or, they could invest it some really new and exciting "green" companies for the benefit of the, the,...the...who?
              Vitَria, Brazil

              Comment


              • #22
                This has been interesting and I have learned a few things about these conversions but to refine the original question, would there be any major gains in performance and economy by building an engine optimized to run on only on CNG/LPG vs an engine that is compromised in design in order to operate on these fuels or gasoline?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by davidwdyer
                  I would like to see the US Government invest in expanding the Natural Gas infrastructure to have it available in gas stations everywhere.

                  Then, everyone could save on fuel.
                  I'm not sure we would be saving on fuel. Cars still use fossil fuel, just a different one. CNG is cheaper now because there is a surplus. Once you add a few million or CNG cars or trucks to the demand it will go up in price too.

                  My dad had a dual mode gas/propane (butane???) Chevy Impala in the 60's. The tank took up most of the huge trunk. I recall that it ran well enough and had no problem with his daily 60 mile commute. I recall that there was no propane gage on the dash. When the tank ran dry it would run rough and he'd switch it over to gas again.

                  My mom hated it. The wasted trunk and the scary and smelly refills turned her off. The uncertainty of the propane level unnerved her.

                  Dan
                  At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                  Location: SF East Bay.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by danlb
                    My mom hated it. The wasted trunk and the scary and smelly refills turned her off. The uncertainty of the propane level unnerved her.
                    Dan
                    Heh, My dad had a propane van at one point.. It had 6 leds for a fuel gage.. The first 3 would go out within 15 minutes of filling, And the next would take 15 minutes or so. 2nd to last I think was good for half an hour...
                    the last one would run for a good hour after that before going out. No idea how much range you would have after the last one went out.. He never ran it dry.
                    Play Brutal Nature, Black Moons free to play highly realistic voxel sandbox game.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by danlb
                      I'm not sure we would be saving on fuel. Cars still use fossil fuel, just a different one. CNG is cheaper now because there is a surplus. Once you add a few million or CNG cars or trucks to the demand it will go up in price too.

                      My dad had a dual mode gas/propane (butane???) Chevy Impala in the 60's. The tank took up most of the huge trunk. I recall that it ran well enough and had no problem with his daily 60 mile commute. I recall that there was no propane gage on the dash. When the tank ran dry it would run rough and he'd switch it over to gas again.

                      My mom hated it. The wasted trunk and the scary and smelly refills turned her off. The uncertainty of the propane level unnerved her.

                      Dan
                      I'm certainly not an expert, but I have heard that not only is there a surplus, there's a HUGE surplus.

                      The price is very low because of this. What I heard was that there is enough Natural Gas in the US to supply all the energy needs of the country, including converting coal fired plants to gas and powering all cars for 100 years. While this may not be completely true (I have not studied the exact statistics) there certainly is a lot at a cheap price.

                      One of the financial burdens which may "blue collar" Americans are bearing is the cost of fuel today. It takes a big bite of of many wallets. If the gov. wishes to do something to change this situation in a real way and stimulate the economy, this is one.

                      However, there seems to be a policy to try to eliminate fossil fuels by letting people feel the pinch so badly that they try something else, even though this "something else" is not yet very workable.
                      Vitَria, Brazil

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by davidwdyer
                        I'm certainly not an expert, but I have heard that not only is there a surplus, there's a HUGE surplus.

                        The price is very low because of this. What I heard was that there is enough Natural Gas in the US to supply all the energy needs of the country, including converting coal fired plants to gas and powering all cars for 100 years. While this may not be completely true (I have not studied the exact statistics) there certainly is a lot at a cheap price.
                        I've heard similar claims, but find them hard to believe. Most of the areas I live in already have natural gas piped to every single house and business. My heater, clothes dryer and water heater all run on it. It costs me $100 a month for that 'cheap, surplus fuel'.

                        The energy crisis of 2000? It was caused by the energy traders (Enron being one) reserving natural gas pipeline capacity that they were not really using. That effectively blocked the sale of NG from competitors. There was plenty of NG available, it just could not be transported to the Electric generators that needed it.

                        If it were really economical to build a NG infrastructure for cars, the companies that own the NG supplies would be funding it. Instead, they are pushing for the government to create the demand for them.


                        Dan
                        At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                        Location: SF East Bay.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Around here, CNG is not practical. The short range tanks, the weight of them and the cost of the installation and the cost of the CNG all say no to that idea.

                          Had two Caravans that I bought, already converted, otherwise I would have kept on walking. Would take forever to recoup your investment. Most of the re-fuelling stations (Shell) are long gone and about the only user left is the gas company themselves.

                          Propane started with a big bang here in the early eighties then trickled off to nearly nothing lately. Most of those re-fuelling stations are long gone also.

                          There were big users like Canada Post, Fed Ex, UPS...........about the only ones left are taxi's and a few odd balls like me. My old Dodges do just fine on propane and I got my investment back in under two years.

                          Locally it is priced about half that of gas. But that advantage disappears once away from the metro area. On trips to E. Canada and So. U.S. propane costs more than gas in many places. Dual fuel capability is a must!

                          Chrysler made propane fuelled cars around '86/87 ........Diplomats and Caravelles. Stopped after that.

                          Have a look here if you want more discussion..

                          http://fuelsforum.rasoenterprises.com/

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I really know very little about politics or baseball, but I am thankful that the Brazilian government made it available every time I go down the gas station and fill up my little car with NG.

                            On an average week I spend $20 US on driving around the city. On gasoline here I would spend at least $50 for the same amount of driving. At about $30 per week, that comes to about $1,560 per year.

                            The cost of a conversion kit is with installation is about $2,000. As usual, the US gov. has a lot of regulations etc. which probably inhibit people converting. Also, the prices I have heard for kits there is absurd.
                            Last edited by davidwdyer; 03-07-2012, 03:30 PM.
                            Vitَria, Brazil

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I had a bifuel Volvo V70 that ran on petrol/CNG. Fine car, indistinguisable from the petrol one except each tank had a range of 180 miles (PITA). The real killer was a lack of CNG stations to fill up in. However I saved a fortune on the London Congestion Charge of £8 per day

                              Charles

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                As for the LPG conversion, a Vacuum fuel lock-off is about $60, an Impco Cobra regulater about $120, and a Mixer in the $200-300 range plus a tank for the conversion. I work on forklifts which have hour-meters instead of odometers. A common engine used in this application is the GM 4.3L Vortec V-6. I figure that if you drive a car for 100 hours at 30 m.p.h., then you have gone 3000 miles. I have a lot of forklifts with well over 20,000 hours of run time on the motors, which would equate to 600,000 miles not accounting for idling time, without ever being taken apart for repairs. Seems pretty Good to me. Just my 2 cents.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X