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A better vise than the Kurt?

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  • A better vise than the Kurt?

    yeah Dave I was holding out, needed to get some pics. Its not some new style, but new to me, and is impressive.

    The new vise is one of these fixed forward jaw arrangements. I bought a new Kurt last year and have liked it a lot, was looking for a second (tired of moving from between machines) when i came across a kijiji guy selling these. He snickered when i asked how it compares to the Kurt....some salesmanship for sure, but he believed it. He says he used to have 70 of them in cnc production shop he wound down. His business now is a odd mix of a job shop and importer from china/taiwan of everything from vises like this to camera stuff. One thing he showed me was a 3' handle - said they they used some as presses and they never complained

    As it wasn't immediately apparent to me the action of this vise I took a few pics for the curious. Apparently its a knock off (Taiwan) of some European vise that sells in the thousands. Just saying what i was told.

    So far what I like about is deeper jaw than the Kurt, has the same anti-lift feature, through holes in jaws for attaching sold jaws, much more smooth to clamp and undo and the biggest one is the entire area under the work can support things (whereas the centre of the kurt is a no go zone)

    I bought it for 250 used, new they're 450. Initially attracted by price I'm impressed with it. I probably sound like shill, I've no interest in it, just kind of impressed with something that is new me. Anyone else use this style or know its pedigree? I will try and get it on the surface place to survey accuracy today....and report on its performace as i get to use it

    Base:



    Moving jaw is a the back and part of of this large bar that drops into the channel in the base. There 1/2 a thou play on the indicator



    This is the fixed jaw, bolts to the base, straddling the large bar.



    assembled

    Last edited by Mcgyver; 01-14-2018, 01:58 PM.
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  • #2
    I just saw photos of one of these and couldn't see how it worked. From your photos, I see how it works, and it looks good. Bet it's heavy.

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    • #3
      Sorta looks like a Girardi?
      [EDIT:] Perusing through the Gerardi website, I don't think that's it at all. No idea.
      Last edited by Arthur.Marks; 03-11-2012, 01:16 PM.

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      • #4
        Like here?

        https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Vi...d-Work-Holding

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        • #5
          I got one from an eBay dealer in Ontario about 4 years ago and really like it. I think I paid about $250 new for it, but the total including shipping was about $400 and that was only because the courier claimed I had a remote address, although I had to go pick it up from the depot.

          It's amazingly solid, to get any lift on the workpiece you have to flex the 2"x4" piece of bar the moving jaw is fasted to. I tried it with a 4" wide piece of bar in it and by really torquing on the handle I couldn't get as much as 0.001" lift anywhere.

          Accusize in Ontario sells them, though I don't believe that's who I got it from, I think the label might still be on it, I'll see if I can read it next time I'm in the shop. http://www.accusizetools.ca/products...l=36&proid=309 The price in the 2010 Accusize catalogue is $568, so I think got a really good deal even including the shipping.

          Looking at the PDF that is downloadable in the link I posted, the current price is $460, which is still a pretty good value here in Canada.
          Last edited by Robin R; 03-11-2012, 04:13 PM.

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          • #6
            yeah its general shape of the Gerardi, but different operation. It badged a KR machine vise and distributed by D&R in Oakville....just not sure what they are copying...vendor said its a copy of a Gerardi but clearly its not if you look at the operations

            It looks like I won't be using the Kurt as a doorstop quite yet. This thing is a fail, although fixable.

            The first test, indicating the bed of the vise showed incredible accuracy. No more than a 1/10 in both directions...impressed after this test



            Then I put a square on the moving jaw and indicated it this jaw is fixed to the moving bar so should be dead on . Unbelievably, its out 005"! How can this be - you make a vise with one part to 10ths and then the this? Grrrrr.



            I took the fixed jaw off - its put on very well, the bolts needed a 14mm allen key some real wallops with a big copper hammer to beak. The bottom was carefully checked for burns and worked with an hard Arkansas stone - any high points or burrs would show up bright. Nothing, and the stone polished fairly evenly. No rock when sitting on the surface plate.

            I again did the square trick and yup, the vise jaw is .005" out over 6". I'll have to regrind it this afternoon. Being out that much makes it a bit useless and unfixable without a surface grinder, disappointing.

            btw, tests done with Starrett A plate, interapid tenths indicator and a mitutoyo bevel square bought new and used only for inspection and handled with a felt cloth



            Check the fixed jaw, its out .003"

            Last edited by Mcgyver; 01-14-2018, 02:16 PM.
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            • #7
              Could it be they're slightly angled on purpose? doesn't make sense as they're angled the wrong way - if viewed from the side its bucket shape instead of keystone.

              I figure the only fix was to grind it square. My set up using a block i know is good. Indicated one more time just make sure i wasn't missing something.



              off to the grinder - gratuitous action shoot. Does show well though how with short overlapping passes one side of the wheel does all the work leaving the other unworn to spark out. Its a fairly light cut, looks like a lot more but thats just the slow shutter speed capturing a lot of sparks


              Finished! Bit of POS imo to be that far out ....and I spent half a day messing with it so probably would have been better to buy a second Kurt lol.

              Last edited by Mcgyver; 01-14-2018, 02:04 PM.
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              • #8
                How on earth do you measure the knife edge of that square with a round indicator probe? Im glad you used a second square block.

                Also I suspect the only reason you spent a day messing with it was because it intrigued you by its design and you wanted to mess with it

                Intresting design, athough it seems strange to me to use the screw in compression and not tension, as well as having the excessive screw stickout when its open wide since thats about where I stand to operate my mill.

                you could consider adding gibs below the fixed jaw to secure the movable jaw from any float whatsoever. Athough that large metal chunk likey helps pull the jaw down by sheer weight, as well as the fact the screw is in line with the jaws.

                If the jaw is outward, Maybe its because of 'they used some as presses' and it has been sprung, Just like a lathe chuck!
                Last edited by Black_Moons; 03-11-2012, 07:34 PM.
                Play Brutal Nature, Black Moons free to play highly realistic voxel sandbox game.

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                • #9
                  We've got a couple like that at work, among the Kurt's, and Kurt clones. The do a good job of holding the shelves down.....

                  Guys just prefer the Kurts (myself included). They are pretty beefy though. I've never checked them for square, and now you got me curious.
                  Last edited by Dan Dubeau; 03-11-2012, 08:15 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Whats on the floor with the crankshaft beside the brake?
                    Opportunity knocks once, temptation leans on the doorbell.....

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Black_Moons
                      How on earth do you measure the knife edge of that square with a round indicator probe? Im glad you used a second square block.

                      Also I suspect the only reason you spent a day messing with it was because it intrigued you by its design and you wanted to mess with it

                      Intresting design, athough it seems strange to me to use the screw in compression and not tension, as well as having the excessive screw stickout when its open wide since thats about where I stand to operate my mill.

                      you could consider adding gibs below the fixed jaw to secure the movable jaw from any float whatsoever. Athough that large metal chunk likey helps pull the jaw down by sheer weight, as well as the fact the screw is in line with the jaws.

                      If the jaw is outward, Maybe its because of 'they used some as presses' and it has been sprung, Just like a lathe chuck!
                      You beat me to it, There must be some kind of trick I'm not aware of to be able to ride the ball of that indicator down the knife edge of the square.

                      JL................

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 3illmesmart
                        I just saw photos of one of these and couldn't see how it worked. From your photos, I see how it works, and it looks good. Bet it's heavy.
                        I never saw a vise like that either. The front jaw is fixed and the rear jaw moves back into it along with the center body of the vise. !!!!! ????
                        I don't know if I could get used to it, it's ass backwards, definitely not Kurts design.

                        JL..............

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mcgyver


                          So far what I like about is deeper jaw than the Kurt, has the same anti-lift feature, through holes in jaws for attaching sold jaws, much more smooth to clamp and undo and the biggest one is the entire area under the work can support things (whereas the centre of the kurt is a no go zone)
                          I was under the impression the Kurt anti lift was by an internal wedge inside the moving jaw ?
                          Don't see that design on this one. ?
                          .

                          Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JoeLee
                            You beat me to it, There must be some kind of trick I'm not aware of to be able to ride the ball of that indicator down the knife edge of the square.

                            JL................
                            you don't, you just sweep it slowly over each end, with it barely touching, and note the high points. Use a small sq to make the sure the big sq is sq, ie vertical to the plate.

                            BM, the only way plastic deformation would account for the test results would be if the 2" piece of tool steel was permanently forced into a trapezoid shape. I don't think that happened, the force would be more than you could impart and I'd say keys and bolts would have bust first
                            Last edited by Mcgyver; 01-14-2018, 02:18 PM.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Stevenson
                              I was under the impression the Kurt anti lift was by an internal wedge inside the moving jaw ?
                              Don't see that design on this one. ?
                              sorry, didn't mean the mechanism is the same as the angle lock, just the result. The way its set up the moving jaw is pulled down tightening.
                              .

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