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  • We all have our Vises!

    They made it. All 5-6" swiveling Phase2 machine vises bought from Enco, shipped No Charge from MSC from Atlanta. Very nice vise for $119/Delvd. They're from china but seem like very nice quality.
    "Let me recommend the best medicine in the
    world: a long journey, at a mild season, through a pleasant
    country, in easy stages."
    ~ James Madison

  • #2
    Are you opening a bussiness?lol The title should say "We all have A vice"lolGood score bud
    Last edited by ogre; 09-06-2012, 02:35 PM.

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    • #3
      Very nice score!!

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      • #4
        in your case isn't that spelled vice?

        grab one, clean it up, take it apart, get it on the surface plate and with your best 10th's indicator and precision square do a thorough survey.

        Quality is partially looks, partially how good the iron and casting is and a lot how accurately its ground. I had what seemed like a nice one that revealed all kinds of sins on being surveyed; http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...than-the-Kurt?. These things are usually correctable fortunately.

        It would be great to see such a survey here for this and others - where else do you get skilled and impartial quantitative reviews of these things? Hopefully it helps others out and also keeps distributors (and their Chinese manufacturers) in check knowing there is an active environment of peer reviews for all to see. (That may actually be the strongest thing HS types can do to bring about better quality - peer review as emerged as far more important to marketing than ads, maker claims etc)
        .

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        • #5
          I do have some Kurts & you just cannot beat them. Good idea on the survey. I opened 2 & both came with so called survey sheets. I will say without opening them the jaws lined up pertectly, by sight & feel of course, on the top & both sides of each. So far, so good. From my limited experience Phase2 products have been a decent quality import. We'll see.
          "Let me recommend the best medicine in the
          world: a long journey, at a mild season, through a pleasant
          country, in easy stages."
          ~ James Madison

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          • #6
            I have a couple of no name Chinese vises and they are excellent. The one that I surveyed met the printed specs exactly. I just bought a tiny one a couple of months ago and it is very nice.

            The Chinese are beginning to realize the value in individual branding. They have found that Made in China is not a reliable brand.
            Last edited by Evan; 09-06-2012, 11:11 AM.
            Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              The Chinese are beginning to realize the value in individual branding.
              Doing so entails a fundemental shift in commercial and business strategy. Mark the moment. If true, it may be the turning point of our economic times.
              .

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              • #8
                Do you think theres a little bit of snobbery with some people with regards to their tools and name brand names I mean.only the best will do becomes only the dearest will do.My 2 cents worth if anyone cares to add their 2 cents also.Alistair
                Please excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alistair Hosie View Post
                  Do you think theres a little bit of snobbery with some people with regards to their tools and name brand names I mean.only the best will do becomes only the dearest will do.My 2 cents worth if anyone cares to add their 2 cents also.Alistair
                  In days gone by, price was a good indicator of the cost to make the tool. The more expensive tools had more man hours, more rejects, more experienced workers making them etc. However that has all gone down the pan with globalization, and now you can buy a expensive brand and find it rolled off the same chinese assembly line as the top brand stuff, and somewhere inbetween there is a middleman getting very very fat on image alone. The sad thing is we as a group are a small anomaly that don't buy the shiny adverts and look and quantify things for ourselves.

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                  • #10
                    Well said Sir Fluffy well said indeed .Alistair
                    Please excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

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                    • #11
                      The one that gets me is toolboxes. I dont want to offend antone but I can't see putting $15-$20K into a snap on. I bought the big HF on sale with the wide to & bottom, the locker & side drawer boxes for $800. I have a friend who's a snap on snob. So I ordered snap on stickers & renamed it. He never said a word. I belirve he thinks I "out boxed" him. LOL. HF offered that huge base box on sale for $699. It was made bt Larin, the same box was $3599 at sears & on sale at northern for $3099. Amazing!
                      "Let me recommend the best medicine in the
                      world: a long journey, at a mild season, through a pleasant
                      country, in easy stages."
                      ~ James Madison

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Alistair Hosie View Post
                        Do you think theres a little bit of snobbery with some people with regards to their tools and name brand names I mean.only the best will do becomes only the dearest will do.My 2 cents worth if anyone cares to add their 2 cents also.Alistair
                        Alistair,
                        To a certain extent I think it happens, but I see very little of that here. Mcgyver does have a really good point also. My personal experience? and YMMV.
                        There's a certain price point where you just aren't going to get what your expecting at even the hobbyist level. I bought 2 Chinese built 4" mill vices that used, or attempted to use what Kurt does to prevent jaw lift thru Busy Bee, and I'll add they weren't Phase II. They looked ok till you dug into them. Where it counted, they failed. The flex in the fixed jaws was amazing even under less than normal tightening. The internal areas and parts couldn't have been worse unless you did it on purpose. Since I bought on the really low price, I got exactly what I paid for. If I rework the internals, they might be good enough to use as drill press vices. They did come with a lot of casting sand mixed with the grease for parts lapping though.

                        Every single time I've bought due to the low price, I've been disappointed in what I got even at that low price. For most products, a simple Google search will usually turn up user comments. You still need to read between the lines about just how much knowledge the poster has. If your spending enough? Then a few hours of research is to me, well worth it. Those cheap vices are now kept out of sight so I'm not constantly reminded about a past mistake that I shouldn't have made.

                        I replaced them with what I should have done to begin with. A couple of Glacern's that are worth far more and operate far beyond what they cost IMO. Quality, durability, and dependability has a price. It's illogical to think you can get it for dirt cheap. For a seldom used tool, then maybe the cheap will do, but mill vices aren't where you should be buying on price alone. The exact same thing can be said about cutting tools too. There's times where I just can't afford dirt cheap.

                        Pete

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                        • #13
                          The vast majority of my tools and tooling are either American or European/English made. I tooled up before the Chinese were in business. I have a Chinese 4x6, a cheap drill press and some grinders and vises and that's about it. My other machine tools are either US or EU. All my grinding wheels (I have a lot) are from my wife and all of her stock is made in the US with the exception of diamond/CBN wheels which are made in BC, Canada.

                          When I do buy Chinese I don't buy just on price since it doesn't matter who you are you can't build high quality without spending money. Good quality Chinese tools do exist but they cost accordingly. However, they are somewhat cheaper than tools made elsewhere (not counting India). The main area of Chinese tooling I avoid is edged tools. They still aren't very good at that.
                          And yes, the wheels really are made in the US. My wife toured the plant and made one herself. They are still hand made.

                          Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by flylo View Post
                            The one that gets me is toolboxes. I dont want to offend antone but I can't see putting $15-$20K into a snap on. I bought the big HF on sale with the wide to & bottom, the locker & side drawer boxes for $800. I have a friend who's a snap on snob. So I ordered snap on stickers & renamed it. He never said a word. I belirve he thinks I "out boxed" him. LOL. HF offered that huge base box on sale for $699. It was made bt Larin, the same box was $3599 at sears & on sale at northern for $3099. Amazing!
                            Coming from someone who we see buying a lot of old iron I must say that is rather surprising.

                            Tools come and go for me, the only ones I have that are permanent are "hand-me-downs" from relatives and friends. As my living/shop situation changes, so do my hobbies and my tastes. For me, irregardless of the quality of Chinese/asian tools, theyre simply not worth it unless I NEED something NOW. I attend ~100 auctions/yr, enjoy getting deals/steals, but even more do I enjoy selling off tools that were a "steal" to fund shop changes or make space. Maybe not in tool deserts, but in tool rich areas like the NE/midwest US, Chinese/asian tools dont bring squat at resale time compared to used domestic tools of the same age/condition etc.
                            "I am, and ever will be, a white-socks, pocket-protector, nerdy engineer -- born under the second law of thermodynamics, steeped in the steam tables, in love with free-body diagrams, transformed by Laplace, and propelled by compressible flow."

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                            • #15
                              Flylo,
                              My apology's for taking your thread slightly OT.

                              Evan,
                              That's a great picture, there can't be all that many who can say they have built their own grinding wheel like Janet can.

                              And for anyone else here who hasn't seen Evan's shop set up, He's down playing what he has. He's got a smaller manual mill that may or may not be Swiss built, most certainly it's European, but it's about the best I've seen at that size range anywhere and on any forum. I really was blown away by it's capabilities. An awesome larger shaper that I'd love to have if I had a floor that would support it. His CNC mill speaks for itself. His South Bend lathe needed a bit of headstock bearing work that he mentioned when I saw it, but nobody here argues their capabilities or general accuracy. And some real high quality metrology equipment.

                              So far I haven't ever been able to buy any Chinese, India, cutting tool just like he mentions that can come close to American, Japanese, or European built. From at least my experience, there just isn't anything available that we can easily get in North America that does. You do have to buy good quality cutting tools using the common and well known brands. The much higher price is well justified on cost verses performance.

                              I've got to agree with all of his other points also, the Chinese can build to that higher cost and far better level than we normally see. There's a lot of larger industrial Chinese built machine tools in use all over North America. The PM forum even allows them to be posted about. Overall the Taiwan built are, or seem to be better and higher quality. But depending on your point of view, Taiwan is still China. Those sizes of machine tools are almost off topic to what this forum is about though.

                              I'm not rabidly anti Chinese, and just like Evan, I've got the standard 4" x 6" bandsaw, a real pos small drill press that only gets used when the tool fits the accuracy of the job, I ended up buying a Chinese built lathe that was most likely copied from the Emco 11" if I had to bet on it. A Taiwan built knee mill, and the rest is a mix of American, Japanese, or European built machine tools and tooling. I'm living in a machine tool desert, so some of this really hurt to buy new.

                              Again it's only my opinion, but I try real hard to buy only Starrett or Mitutoyo for good measuring equipment. For myself, the higher cost is worth the trade off in accuracy and dependability. I've posted about some free digital calipers I got awhile ago. Their way too expensive in incorrect measurements. The Starrett and Mitutoyo equipment isn't something I normally need to worry about just using standard checks or adjustments.

                              Sometimes you do have to say to hell with the price and buy what you need to get the job done. Other times you can cheat a bit. What and where I disagree, is when someone will post a glowing comment about something I've tried and failed with, and they just don't have the experience to give an unbiased factual account. Rarely that happens here. On a few other forums I can think of, it's quite common. I personally hate seeing anyone making the same costly mistakes I've done in the past.

                              Pete

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