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OT: Do Cyclotrons Only Consume Power

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  • OT: Do Cyclotrons Only Consume Power

    My neighbors across the street built a cyclotron. They plan to get into making
    isotopes for medical use.

    Do cyclotrons only consume power to operate or can they generate power as well ?
    If they only consume power, how much are we talking for this kind of application?

    What about cooling: media, volume, special considerations ...?

    .

  • #2
    Your neighbours plan to build a particle accelerator???

    Your neighbours are nutcases

    In the nicest possible way of course

    Richard

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RLWP View Post
      Your neighbours plan to build a particle accelerator???
      Not future tense. They are pretty far along on the project.
      U of A may fill void in isotopes
      By Gemma Karstens Smith,
      Edmonton Journal 2012.06.11

      "To meet that goal, a powerful cyclotron will be
      installed in the old Balmoral Curling Club this month."

      The nearest detached single family homes are a bit less than 500' away
      from the facility. I am a little further afield, but still only "across the street".

      .

      Comment


      • #4
        Cyclatrons require strong magnetic and radio frequency fields both of which would make your electricity meter spin! (Maybe permanent magnets could be used, I dont know.)

        Comment


        • #5
          I got to do some radiation testing at TRIUMF in BC a few times.
          The cyclotron there was the largest accelerator in the world at that time.
          It got protons going at 3/4 light speed.
          It consumed enormous amounts of power and didn't generate any.
          http://www.triumf.ca/

          Your neighbours are probably crazy unless they are pulling your leg.
          if the latter is true, report back and we'll figure out how to get them back.
          Mike

          My Dad always said, "If you want people to do things for you on the farm, you have to buy a machine they can sit on that does most of the work."

          Comment


          • #6
            HaHa:

            You said "neighbours" and led us to believe they were rednecks building a cyclotron out of plywood and 2x4s in the hopes of using it to power itself and the homes nearby.

            OK boys, now we have to figure out how to get EddyCurr back.
            Mike

            My Dad always said, "If you want people to do things for you on the farm, you have to buy a machine they can sit on that does most of the work."

            Comment


            • #7
              So your neighbours are a university?

              In which case, I wouldn't worry too much. They will have been through enormous steps to prove the safety of what they have, and they can afford to pay the electric bill

              Richard

              Comment


              • #8
                Medical isotope quality mimicked without reactor
                CBC News 2012.06.11

                "The Alberta team was able to produce viable quantities of high-quality
                technetium-99m using a 19-mega-electron-volt cyclotron, a circular
                particle accelerator, said Dr. Sandy McEwan, a researcher with the
                University of Alberta and medical director with Alberta Health Services'
                Cross Cancer Institute in Edmonton.

                ...

                The next step is to scale up production from the clinical trial stage to
                make the 500 doses of isotopes that are used daily by hospitals and clinics
                in the Edmonton area, McEwan said.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I worked on a deal once involving medical isotopes. as I recall there is an issue in that some half lives are short enough that being Toronto getting much of theirs from a facility in Buffalo (1.5 hours away) is a problem. Ideally you want them in the same building that uses the isotopes. iirc there are cyclotrons that you buy and install in a medical building in dense urban areas...although granted I have no knowledge if these are the same products U of A is creating. Just a tidbit I happened to know about the medical isotope biz
                  Last edited by Mcgyver; 09-27-2012, 05:53 PM.
                  in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hold up with that there rope, partner.
                    I'm not done yet.

                    Is the statement, 'A cyclotron only consumes power' correct?
                    And if so, how much power does one like this need: a little or a
                    lot.

                    Where I'm going with this is that the same neighbor is also setting
                    about building a combined use community (residential, academic,
                    research and 'mixed use') adjacent to the cyclotron. Daily site
                    population anticipated to be 20,000.

                    Curious minds want to know how & where the energy to operate
                    all this is going to come from. A guiding principal is to use alternative,
                    non-fossil fuel sources.

                    .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OK, clearly you know a lot more about this than the rest of us. You tell us

                      Richard

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
                        ... as I recall there is an issue in that some half lives are short enough that being
                        Toronto getting much of theirs from a facility in Buffalo (1.5 hours away) is a problem...
                        A limitation of deriving them via fission:
                        Backgrounder: Producing medical isotopes using X-rays

                        "In the case of Tc-99m, Mo-99 is collected from the by-products of
                        splitting the uranium atoms, packaged into nuclear pharmaceuticals and
                        shipped to hospitals around the world. The Mo-99, with a half-life of
                        66 hours, decays into Tc-99m, which has a half-life of 6 hours."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RLWP View Post
                          ...you know a lot more about this ...
                          Only what I've read.

                          The overall site comprises two islands amounting to just over 600 acres
                          of essentially undeveloped farm land in the center of a very mature urban
                          residential area.

                          One doesn't just tap the existing adjacent infrastructure for energy (or anything
                          else) for a project like this.

                          Photovoltaics, biomass cogeneration and other catch words are bandied about
                          as alternatives to fossil fuels. However, it would take a pretty sizable array of
                          panels to heat the coffee pots for the Starbucks outlets that will appear, not
                          to mention servicing all the rest of the demand from 20K people/day.

                          .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Berkley National Laboratory estimates that a typical 30 MeV cyclotron requires about 400 kW to run. Supposing that it was running at full capacity for 1 hour, it would need 400 kW-hrs. Total operational cost for said cyclotron (including salaries for technicians, research scientists, etc): ~1 million USD per year.

                            There are quite a few cost-benefit analysis reports floating around for various cyclotrons. They're pretty old technology and very much "plug and play" type equipment. Many universities purchase cyclotrons for research, isotope production, even student labs.



                            As far as I know, TRIUMF is still the world's largest cyclotron. 500 MeV is pretty ridiculous for a cyclotron. Here at IU we have a 137 MeV cyclotron that is considered big. These values are, of course, small compared to synchrotrons. The LHC is a super conducting synchrotron and accelerates particles to about 7 TeV, which is 14,000 times higher energy than TRIUMF.


                            (EDIT: the 400 kW includes all the peripherals, from vacuum pumps, to chillers, to lights, to coffee pots ... well maybe not coffee pots Also, it would be reasonable to subtract about 120 kW from that figure since we are only talking about a 17 MeV machine. Most of the power usage goes to the RF amplifiers and the magnets. Both of those would scale down by about half, which equates to a reduction of about 120 kW)

                            To put this in perspective, I just read an article online about how Kellog's "Eggo" plant had reduced their energy consumption by 675,000 kW-hrs by implementing a compressed air system. So, I would guess that any major industrial areas draw significantly more power from the grid than the cyclotron will...
                            Last edited by Fasttrack; 09-27-2012, 06:56 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Cyclotrons are only energy consumers. They're basically a high power transmitter with a chamber instead of an antenna. I suspect you could build a small one on the order of 20-100kw.

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