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compressed air locomotive

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  • aostling
    replied
    Were the engineers at Citro├źn inspired by this thread?

    http://www.tflcar.com/2013/02/how-ab...an-air-hybrid/

    I'd like to know how much the car's range is extended by this novel mode of regenerative braking.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1-800miner
    replied
    Not too much,started in the seventies and still doing it. I still have a lot to learn.

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  • tdmidget
    replied
    Originally posted by 1-800miner View Post
    I am not disagreeing with the pressure they used But I think they were used as special applications, a thousand psi compressor is a hellofa machine. You don't see one every day.
    I got to thinking about what someone said about the heavy plating on the loco. Every thing in the mining industry is built robust.
    Try to picture a four foot wide train speeding through a tunnel with rock walls just a few inches wider than the train. Some time it jumps the rails and takes serious hits. They have to be built strong by x3.
    The word "finesse" is nowhere to be found in a miners vocabulary.

    Speaking of which. Three miners were working together and one gets blown up. Of the two survivors, the one tells the other"You were closer to his family than I, so you have to tell the wife But be sure to use some tact when you tell her".
    So the other miner goes to town with the bad news and returns to the mine with a bottle of whiskey.
    "Were did you get the booze?" " Oh,I just bet her a bottle that she was a single woman."
    "Speeding through a mine"? You must not have spent much time in one.

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  • 1-800miner
    replied
    I am not disagreeing with the pressure they used But I think they were used as special applications, a thousand psi compressor is a hellofa machine. You don't see one every day.
    I got to thinking about what someone said about the heavy plating on the loco. Every thing in the mining industry is built robust.
    Try to picture a four foot wide train speeding through a tunnel with rock walls just a few inches wider than the train. Some time it jumps the rails and takes serious hits. They have to be built strong by x3.
    The word "finesse" is nowhere to be found in a miners vocabulary.

    Speaking of which. Three miners were working together and one gets blown up. Of the two survivors, the one tells the other"You were closer to his family than I, so you have to tell the wife But be sure to use some tact when you tell her".
    So the other miner goes to town with the bad news and returns to the mine with a bottle of whiskey.
    "Were did you get the booze?" " Oh,I just bet her a bottle that she was a single woman."

    Leave a comment:


  • bob ward
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter S View Post
    A lot of posters seem to think the smokeless and compressed air locos were used to prevent explosion, but surely that is only one reason and applies to coal mines, not to gold or other safe mines or most factories. The point is that a normal coal-fired loco could not be used underground, or in factories for that matter because of the smoke. My guess is that compressed air locos were ideal underground because of the huge compressed air supplies generally available above and below ground and fireless type were ideal around power stations, factories etc because of the large, economically-produced steam supplies to hand.

    ps. yes I know coal-fired cranes and locos were used inside works, but I bet they were never popular.
    Its hard to believe 100 odd years later on, but the London Underground used steam locos from its inception in the early 1860s until electrification started in the early 1900s, by which time the system was carrying millions of passengers a year.

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  • RLWP
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Everyone is correct. The difference is simply because of using what was available in various situations. Everything I have learned about compressed air engines is that they usually ran on at least close to 1000 psi or more. That doesn't mean you can't run it on 100 psi but does mean it sure won't go far or pull as much.
    Yep, I'll bet if you ran it on 100psi, it would probably only go 100 feet

    hang on a minute....

    Richard

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  • Evan
    replied
    Everyone is correct. The difference is simply because of using what was available in various situations. Everything I have learned about compressed air engines is that they usually ran on at least close to 1000 psi or more. That doesn't mean you can't run it on 100 psi but does mean it sure won't go far or pull as much.

    Leave a comment:


  • JCHannum
    replied
    It sounds like 1-800miner's engine was a rig of sorts to get by when the electric engine was lost.

    This page from the previous link clearly shows the design was for the main receiver tank to be presurized to 150 atmospheres. This pressure was reduced twice before being introduced into the engine. The engine illustrated bears a very close resemblence to the engine in the OP photos.

    http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/L.../airloco.htm#p

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  • Weston Bye
    replied
    I agree with miner as to the pressure. It is certainly possible to achieve higher pressures with an intensifier - a large piston pushing a smaller piston to pump high pressure, but such things use a lot of air that won't get into the loco. I built one that uses 100psi air to produce 1200psi hydraulic pressure that is used daily for leak testing fuel injector coils. The same is done with air.

    Such a simple device could be mounted on the loco, and it would huff and puff like a Westinghouse steam air compressor all the time it was filling the tank - and waste a lot of air. Miner would probably have mentioned it.

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  • kf1002002
    replied
    The heavy plate and rivets in the picture do seem to imply a higher pressure than 100 psi; but remember that for a given pressure the barrel stress will be proportional to the tank diameter.
    At the mine where I worked the air was used for drills and mucking machines; there were no air powered locos and know darned well it was in the ballpark of 100---125 psi.

    Ken

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  • 1-800miner
    replied
    I was there. I was the one charging it. Out in the compressor shed was a Gardner Denver 750 compressor that would fill the entire canyon with black smoke if you tried to adjust the pressure past 130.
    I have worked maybe a hundred mines and tunnels and its always 120 to 150.
    I know that msha has a limit on air pressure used underground. I could look up the number in the regulations,but I am sure its under two hundred.

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by 1-800miner View Post

    As far as working air pressure on the air locos, it is 120 or 130.
    That is what all the other air tools use and that is all the compressor would put out. So that was all you had.
    Not what the Porter info says.... and there would be NO need for that thick plate if such a low and totally useless pressure were used....... You seem to assume the loco was charged up underground...... doubtful, it would be in and out bringing ore and etc out. Lots of chance to re-pressurize.

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  • 1-800miner
    replied
    I worked in Fairplay in 73 and 74. There were some guys 50 and 60 years old. I listened to every one of their stories that I could.
    I remember an old guy at the bar,in his seventies or eighties. He would listen to us youngsters bragging what rough and tough miners we were. Then he would tell us his stories of mules packing twenty ton crusher up the mountains or stinging cable tramways over three mountain ranges.
    I remember him telling me that a top miner was worth a dollar a day, a good nipper was paid four bits, and if gold ever hit 75$ he was going to sell all of his because that meant that America had gone to hell in a hand basket.
    The mine I worked at was the London mine,between Alma and Fairplay, to the west just a mile or two from the continental divide.

    As far as working air pressure on the air locos, it is 120 or 130.
    That is what all the other air tools use and that is all the compressor would put out. So that was all you had.

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  • 11 Bravo
    replied
    Originally posted by kf1002002 View Post
    ..........................Back to the original question the air pressure was about 100 psi.................................Ken
    I haven't seen any compressed air locomotives with listed pressures that low.

    The data I have found on the Porters from the early 1900s like the one in the OP show a storage pressure of 800 PSI and an engine working pressure of 250 PSI.

    Some of the later Porter engines around 1930 had storage pressures of 1000 PSI. Porter had one design that had a storage pressure of 2100 PSI.

    Baldwin and Dicknson both had compressed air locomotives with listed storage pressure of 600 PSI.

    Some of the late compressed air locomotives made in the 1950s listed storage pressures of 2900 PSI.

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  • aostling
    replied
    Originally posted by 1-800miner View Post
    But the majority of the old mines used a pony or donkey to pull the cars.I have explored a few old mines and found rooms blasted out as a livery,with old harness still hanging on nails.
    Yours is quite a tale. I looked up Fairplay in the 1941 WPA guide book to Colorodo, and read this:
    FAIRPLAY, 71.3 m. (9,964 alt., 221 pop.), is another of the State's old mining towns. A group of prospectors, affronted because miners drove them from the rich placers at Tarryall (see Tour 15a), settled here in 1859 and named their camp Fairplay in disparagement of their rivals.

    Near the center of town a monument (L), erected by citizens in 1930, marks the Grave of Prunes, a burro. Brought into South Park in 1867, Prunes is said to have worked in every mine in the Fairplay-Alma district. Robert Sherwood, an old-time miner, who died in 1931 at the age of 82, was buried at the rear of the monument as he had requested.

    Did you meet any old-timers when you were there, guys whose memories went back to the 1930s?

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