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  • Options for a quality vise to mount to my cross slide?

    What are some suggestions/advice for a cross slide mounted vice for my cheap King 10X22 machine lathe?
    I would like to get a decent vice so I can do some milling on my lathe.
    Here is a pic of my cross slide assy:





    Thanks!
    Jon

  • #2
    A vice on its own will not allow you do much useful milling on a lathe. You need a vertical slide as well and then you can do some minimal milling. To illustrate - here is a small vertical slide (top of page) http://www.lathes.co.uk/myford/page3.html.
    Bill

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    • #3
      http://www.vintageprojects.com/machi...ttachment.html that same plan shows up a couple of times under different "names"

      http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...r-Hercus-Lathe one thread here

      Busy Bee has one listed

      http://statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA-5.html will get you pieces [route I would go unless I had some of the major bits already lying around...partly because it is more of a project, so would help improve my skills]

      Comment


      • #4
        Here's the milling attachment I made for a similar size Jet lathe. The compound slide is mounted vertically on a 5 x 5 x 5" angle plate. The vise is a 3" milling vise made by Eron. It's a reasonably nice Japanese made vise that I've been pleased with. I purchased both from MSC about 30 years ago. I haven't seen that vise, or any other nearly as nice, in MSC's catalog in years. Maybe you can track one down.

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        • #5
          Thanks allot folks! Now I have an inkling as to what I need at least..
          I like the kits from the state college link above! Until I get some experience though, I suspect I should stay away from anything that requires fine precision machining like they would require...
          There is a Sowa and a Busy bee not to far from here so I will do some shopping around and see what I can come up with....
          As for a collet to hold the milling tools, what is recommended there? Make your own or purchase one?
          Cheers,
          Jon

          Comment


          • #6
            Jon:

            PM sent

            Russ

            Comment


            • #7
              Jon,
              It's kinda odd no one has yet answered your collet question, so I'll take a shot at it. But like anything, there's always a few ways of looking at the problem. You could just pick up some MT collets that match the taper in your lathe. MT 3 I think it is? While Morse Tapers have certainly proven themselves for a hell of a long time, they are a bit of an antiquated method today considering there's much better designs around. I'm certainly no fan of pounding on the end of the drawbar and in turn beating the spindle bearings into a slow death to get a MT to release. You could I guess add a screw type ejector to the out board end of your lathes spindle to force MT collets loose. But any lathes internal MT lives in a filthy environment, and especially so during through boring operations. So you'd need to spotlessly clean that MT any time you want to use it with a collet or any male MT. Even more so since your lathe doesn't have a hardened spindle, not that it really matters or makes a difference.

              Keeping tool overhang to the bare minimum out past the spindle bearings is always a good idea, but to be honest, milling with a lathe has got to be considered as a pretty light duty operation.There's no way in hell your going to be coming even close to maximum HP and or depths of cut. And any collet type you can think of all have their good and bad design points. But if it were me? I'd probably either buy or better yet for minimum run out build a spindle mounted ER-32 collet chuck machined in place and well marked for it's repeatable mounting position. Your not going to be building the hardened and ground ER collet nut, so you'd need that and a set of collets. You also need to consider that the ER type collets require some fairly high torque limits on the closing nut. Upwards of 100 ft pds for the ER-32s. So the actual chuck design itself needs to be restrained from rotating while tightening or loosening the collet nut. But since you would be only light duty milling, then maybe a bit less would probably work ok. A nice side bonus would be you can not only use that ER chuck for milling, but if that chuck is machined in place, you also have a very accurate work holding chuck while machining work during your lathes normal method of operation. Or at least as accurate as the collets are made and your spindle bearings will allow. They also make ER type Morse Taper shank collet chucks, but your again back to the above issues and your loosing the spindles through hole for longer lathe type work. So that's always seemed like a poorly thought out choice to me. Should you decide to buy an actual vertical mill later on, you'd then only need to buy the correct taper collet chuck for your mill that also fits your ER collets.

              There's one of the U.K. published Workshop Practice series books that deals with "Milling in the Lathe". In fact that's the books title. It would be well worth while buying and reading that book due to it's content. It will answer a lot of questions and shows lot's of different set ups.

              5C collets would or could work also, but a full set of those that would be required just for work holding in the lathe along with a 5C chuck could end up as fairly expensive. There's better / faster collets and systems than the ER's just like those 5C's for industrial repetitive work. Overall though I think the ER's work about as well as anyone can expect for a HSM. Due to a few accessories designed by John Stevenson and obtainable through Arc Euro in the U.K. for the ER 32's, they would be the main reason I'd go with that size of collet, but there's certainly other sizes around from the ER-8's up to at least the ER-50's. It's just too bad that so far ER collets for holding square work aren't available like they are with the 5C's. There's also lot's of different industrial collets types around that mostly wouldn't work very well for you due to their overall rarity and or very high cost. For my way of thinking, The ER's probably give you about the best bang for the buck.

              Pete

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              • #8
                Thanks for the detailed post Pete!
                I have been doing lots of reading/learning and I can see there is a lifetime more to do!
                I have been keeping an eye out for used ER32 collets and chucks...
                Could you please elaborate on
                build a spindle mounted ER-32 collet chuck machined in place and well marked for it's repeatable mounting position.
                ? Or point me to some instructions on how to go about machining such a chuck? If it does not use a taper, how does it mount to the spindle?
                Cheers,
                Jon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Jon,
                  No problem. All I was describing was a way to wring the most repeatable accuracy out of whatever chuck mounting system you'd use anywhere.

                  If I recall correctly, your lathes chucks use a recessed area in the back plate that very closely fits the lathe spindle flange and a set of semi permanently mounted studs that pass through the spindle flange and then nuts are used on the studs to retain whatever is being used as a spindle mounted work holder. (3 jaw, 4 jaw, faceplate, or whatever). So you'd start out with a blank length of material large enough on diameter to fit your spindle flange in the same way your standard lathe chucks do, and long enough in length that the O.D. can be step turned down to machine the ER's closing nuts threads. you'd also permanently mark your spindle and your soon to be collet chuck so each time it's used in the future it gets mounted in the exact same position on the lathes spindle it was machined at. A center punch mark on the collet chuck with maybe a small grind mark on the spindle would work. I would NOT stamp the spindle. Spindle bearings don't ever like shocks like that at all. Your spindle may or may not be hardened also.

                  So what you end up with is just a copy of the backside of what your lathe chucks look like. Once that's mounted onto your lathes spindle, you then proceed to machine the chucks threads for that ER closing nut, and also taper bore the chuck to the correct angle and depth to fit whatever ER collet size you end up deciding on. I could of course be incorrect on the exact method used on your model of lathe, but it doesn't really matter since you just duplicate whatever is used. Since everything on the chuck is finish machined in place on the lathe that it will be used on, then it's runout and repeatable mounting accuracy should be about as good as you can expect with that lathe and those spindle bearings. IMHO there's little point in using collets at all other than a much better grip on mill type tooling if your not also getting far less runout than a standard off the shelf 3 jaw lathe chuck would provide. .001 or less should be quite doable with half decent collets. Yeah it's a fairly involved project that requires some good planning and accurate machining, but I'd say it's within your capabilities with a bit of help from the members here.

                  There's more than a few threads on various forums where people have posted detailed descriptions about how they built their own collet chucks pretty well in the same way I mentioned. I think there's a few on the HMEM and Madmodder forums, and there might even be a few on here also. A standard search should bring those threads up. I'd also do a online search for the industry standard dimensions used with ER style collets since the internal angle and even depth that angle is machined to is quite critical. There's a few sites around that I've seen that have the correct dimensions. Most would or should start out with a designated DIN number.

                  Depending on just how correct I am about what your lathe uses for a mounting system, there could be a few pre built ER-32 collet lathe chucks around that may fit your lathe at a fairly reasonable cost. Little machine shop might even have one? But just because it's easier, that doesn't exactly mean it's better or more accurate. Just due to standard allowable tollerences, you'd most likely end up with more run out than anything you machined yourself on your own lathe. Buying a chuck back plate that fits your lathe and then bolting on a steel blank to it, and then machining your collet chuck could also work. I also wouldn't just buy collets due to them being the cheapest price you can find either. In this hobby you generally get what your willing to pay for. And all collets or manufacturers are certainly not equal. If any collet manufactuer or dealer won't state in writing what the maximum allowable run outs are then I wouldn't touch them. I've read a few posts on various forums where some people got what they think were very good results from the real cheap ER collets, others where people have posted they got real poor run outs. YMMV. And most ER style collet sets sold today don't usually have a full and complete set that would be needed for work holding, so before buying make sure the dealer can or will be able to get the other ones that make up a full set. The ER style collets will normally accept about .040 difference in work size so each collet size overlaps each other, but it's still better practice to try and keep your parts and or tooling at the collets nominal size. You'll get a better grip and maybe a bit less run out that way. Constantly over compressing ER collets can cause them to fracture since the good ones are heat treated. There's also a proper and designated procedure that needs to be followed so that each collet gets snapped into and out of place in the collet nut. The machined female ring on each collet has a proper use and the hardened male ring inside the collet nut fits inside it, that allows the nut to withdraw the collet from the collet chucks female taper so it relaxes the collets grip.

                  Pete
                  Last edited by uncle pete; 11-23-2012, 01:30 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks again Pete!
                    I think I mostly get it now, thanks. My chuck and face plate configuration is as you describe.
                    My lathe came with a 3 and 4 jaw chuck and each came with its own mounting plate. I had to true up the 3 jaw plate already and I haven't checked the 4 jaw one yet but either one of those should work fine from what you describe...
                    So what should I use for steel, is cold rolled stock good enough for the chuck body? My lathe has a 1" through hole in the spindle so I assume I should use a collet size that can go to 1", or is that a bad idea?
                    I went and looked at a bunch of used tooling tonight and the guy had about 15 different sized collets that he said were from an old hardinge machine, now that I understand what your talking about I wish I had asked him what he wanted for them as they looked pretty nice...
                    The guy gave me a couple old books too "Shop Theory, 15th edition" and "Technology of Machine Tools" so I will be doing more reading then machining for awhile anyways...

                    Cheers,
                    Jon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I did some reading this morning and found all the dimensions for the ER system HERE.
                      I see they can take up to about a 3/4" piece of work or tool.
                      A guy posted his build of an ER32 chuck HERE. Instead of building it so it can bolt onto a faceplate he made it so it will thread directly onto the spindle, are there any advantages or disadvantages of this method compared with machining it to mate up with one of my faceplates?
                      Cheers,
                      Jon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think it is a matter of precision in that if it threads directly onto the spindle, you have eliminated one surface (chuck to faceplate) and each time another surface touches there is a chance of loss of accuracy...not to say it can not be done chuck to faceplate.
                        If you envision transferring the item in the collet holder to another machine, leaving it in the collet and transferring the entire works to other machine can have advantages for accuracy as well, provided the other machine can accept the chuck. Working on the lathe and wanting to transfer the work to a rotary table or dividing head in/on a mill springs to mind.

                        Generally, I believe, you want to eliminate as many adapters as possible, which, in effect, is what a faceplate is.

                        For example, my lathe spindle is 1.75 x 8 tpi, if I make a direct mount ER 32, I get a MT # 2 with a blank "top" since that is the taper on my rotary table, and cut those same threads the blank end. I can then just unscrew the ER32 chuck off the lathe spindle, mount it on the MT threaded end and put it into the rotary table. If I make the lathe ER32 to mount on a faceplate, I can remove it from the lathe faceplate and mount it on a "sub-plate" on the rotary table...so I mean it can work both ways but with an extra "layer" that can add inaccuracy.
                        That is if you want to keep the hollow spindle aspect, if you can give up having the ability to pass through, you can probably find a ER32 chuck direct mount with a MT # 2 (in my case) shank...there are a number of options.
                        Last edited by RussZHC; 11-24-2012, 12:27 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Jon,
                          As usual I'd certainly agree with anything Russ had to say. Since your system for mounting chucks to the lathes spindle is how I remembered it, that's a pretty simple and easy to replicate design. So if it were me? I'd just build the whole thing from one piece of steel. The more parts and pieces you add into any design, the more chance there is of part misalignment, future movement, etc. Better to keep things as simple as possible I think. Probably about any type of steel that's fairly easy to machine and will give you a good surface finish will work fine. It might be better to order a proper piece from a steel supplier rather than depend on what you might find with a chunk of mystery metal. Your going to have enough time and energy invested into this that there's not much point trying to pinch pennies. And there's quite a bit of fairly accurate machining to do, buying proper metal that will machine well will only make your job easier. I'm certainly not recommending it, but I wonder if a good cast iron might work pretty good for these chucks? I just don't know enough to say for sure, so I'd stick with a good steel myself.

                          I'd also search out as many other threads about building these types of collet chucks on the various forums as you can since they all have some good points about just how that builder did it. The more information you have, the better it can help.

                          A few points for thought if you don't mind though. I'd first build an exact replica of the male section of your lathes spindle nose that fits inside your chuck back plates. All you want is everything to be the exact, or as close as you can measure to exactly the same size as your lathes spindle nose. That's going to be your plug gage that's used to check fits while your machining what will be the rear mounting area on your soon to be collet chuck. That plug gage probably isn't optional IMO. With the collet chuck blank mounted on your lathe and being machined, you have no way to accuratley dismount it and check it against your lathes spindle nose and then re-mount it. That's why a duplicate of your lathe's nose is required. Once you start machining that mounting area, concentrate on getting it as close to a perfect fit as you can since the future repeatable mounting accuracy of that chuck depends on doing a great job on that. You then correctly lay out, drill, and tap for your mounting studs and install those. Then you mount the whole thing back onto your lathe's spindle in it's proper operating position with a SPOTLESSLY CLEANED LATHE SPINDLE NOSE AND THE SAME FOR THE COLLET CHUCK. From then on it doesn't get removed from the lathe until everything else on that chuck is 100% finished and correct.

                          Right now my Adobe reader is playing stupid so your Regeo site may or may not have the proper dimensions. But what I meant about the collet sizes was finding a proper online engineering drawing that the factory's have to follow so their collets and or collet chucks will work correctly together or with other manufacter's collets and chucks. Those drawings should show or have something with a number on them, and that number should start out as DIN followed by the string of numbers. Those drawings should show the exact dimensions for the collet angle, and just as important the depth that angle is machined to on the chucks. If that's what's on the REGEO site then your good to go. You'll also need to use one of the collets as another plug gage as you get very close to the finished internal taper. The whole job won't be just a few hours long since there's quite a bit of work that has to be slightly corrected till it's right as you go. Getting the topslide angle set 100% correct so that your chucks inner tapered bore matches the collets themselves is just one example. Other than the initial measurements so that your spindle nose's plug gage agrees very accuratley with the dimensions on your lathes spindle, all your really doing is using the lathes spindle nose, collets, and the collets closing nut as gages so that your parts will work with the parts you aren't building. Done right, almost all of your measurements will only be to get you roughly close. Your gages set your final part dimensions.

                          Probably most if not all collet chucks come with a wrench, but since your only buying a set of collets and the seperate closing nut, you'll probably also need to pick up a proper wrench that fits the same nut your buying since they all seem to vary their designs a bit between each manufacter. I'd also figure out exactly what I was going to use to use as a way to keep the lathes spindle from rotating while tightening or loosening that collet nut. There's a lot of different tools used from pin wrenches on the chucks O.D. or even a real large standard commercial wrench could be used I guess. That decision should be up to you. But that part of your design does need to be finalized before you start. The rest of the chuck design is pretty well set due to it needing to fit everything else. Armstrong at one time made some real large and high quality pin wrenches, one of those would work well if you could find a decent used one today. I'd also make a point of keeping the whole chuck design as short as possible since that can only help with it's future accuracy since the whole thing does hang out past your lathes spindle bearings.

                          With a 1" through hole on your lathes spindle, you could go as large as a ER-40 set, overall though I think the 32's may be a slightly better deal for you. I know what I paid for a full set of Bison ER-40's when I mistakenly bought them through KBC.

                          Pete
                          Last edited by uncle pete; 11-25-2012, 06:01 AM.

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                          • #14
                            For aluminum and quick projects I just use a cut up aluminum soda can as a shim between the endmill and the 3 jaw. The aluminum helps grip the endmill so it doesn't slip and/or pull out of the chuck.

                            I do also have a collet chuck that I do use when I am going to do a bunch of milling on the lathe or with tough materials.







                            And the collet chuck.

                            Andy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks folks! Lots of good stuff there....
                              I think I will make the collet chuck to thread directly on the spindle then, this will have the least overhang and connection points, this beat up el-cheapo lathe needs all the help in accuracy it can get...
                              I think I know where I can get some chunks of 2" drill rod for a song, would drill rod be a good choice to make this chuck out of?
                              vpt, that vertical cross slide and vice looks like awesome! I missed out on a nice one on kijiji that Russ sent me a link too (thanks Russ!), a guy told me he had a nice one but when I went to look at it, it was all wrong. So I am still on the hunt for a vise too...
                              Thanks again!
                              Jon

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