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  • Attitude towards members

    As the "Evaluating a surface plate " thread went off topic after my question , I have started this one .
    I think that the differences in the way people approach their work has been well documented , but just because I for one only work to the requirements of the task at hand with the correct tools and training to carry out the job competantly , does not mean that the results are rough and ready because I dont machine a shaft to +or -0.00015 for it entire length when all that is required is a bearing surface at each end with a slip fit section in the centre for a bush to mount .

    It seems that some members dont appreciate that I know how to and am capable of meeting the tolerances that are required for a task .
    I do what is required by a customer to complete a repair or modification that has to work first up.
    As for Tiffies snippets of information , that has saved me time occasionally , I actially used what he posted as a guide to get the information that I needed to replace an obselete part .
    He is not the only one who fills in the gaps .

    I do appreciate that others here do either by choice or requirement often work to extreme toleramces and enjoy the challenge , but could you also respect anyone who doesnt need to .
    As Tiffie stated a weldment can sometimes be all that is needed , just clean up the rough egdes with a grinder or sander ,paint it and job completed .
    And we are just as proud as someone who scraped a lathe bed to 0.015 mm for its entire length when it was previously like a roller coaster.
    Michael

  • #2
    I would agree. Just because someone doesn't choose, or isn't able to make something to the half-a-knat's-eyelash tolerance that some seem to think is mandatory does not mean that the anal retetive types that have to be perfect are correct. A correct part is one that will work and last longer than it is needed for the service it needs to perform. If your personal demands are such that you need to spend 40 hours to make a part that someone else can make in 1 hour (using a bit of emery cloth for the final fitting) does not make yours better. It just means that you spent more time futzing around to get a "perfect" part that performs no better that the in tolerance part.

    SO - if someone else is making parts that work just fine, and doing it safely and efficiently, they should not be criticized because they don't pick all the nits along the way. A few years back I saw a nice article in a Model Airplane magazine where the editor was getting rather fed up with all the nit-pickers that were seeming to invade the portion of the hobby he enjoyed. What finally happened is that they picked so many nits that the majority finally figured out what was happening and sent them packing.

    I have also seen the geniuses in other forums that can provide tons of advice, just non of it fits the question asked. Red the question the original poster asked, and try to come up with a helpful answer to whatever it was he proposed. Among the group here there is quite a bit of experience, from the sublime to the ridiculous, from half-a knat's-eye-lash to the it-fit-with-a-big-hammer. Sometimes the Hammer is really the way to do the job. Let's be helpful, rather than egotistical. Let's be helpful rather than arrogant. Let's encourage rather than run folks off.

    And let's also be a bit tolerant of those of us who have the occasional bad day or major brain-fart. It would appear that there are a number of old-farts here (I'm one of the younger old farts at 55) and we do have our moments. Please be patient with us, after our nap we will be a bit easier to get along with.

    Comment


    • #3
      Michael,

      All I can really do is just go "Amen says the choir".

      I worked as a toolmaker & job shop machinist for a number of years & it took a long while to get it through my thick head that not everything needs to be made to within a hair on a gnats behind. If it works and lasts for its intended lifespan then it is good enough. If the real world tolerance is +/- .005" with a 125 finish and you made it to within .00005" and an 8 finish you gained nothing and probably lost time holding such a tolerance.

      I built my own shop and garage addition and neither of them were made to within machinist's tolerances. Even if they were, a year later they would have been way off due to settling, the freeze/thaw cycle, wood drying, etc. An 1/8" tolerance is more than good enough for a building, not so good for a bearing press fit.

      So yes, there is no need for the "my stuff is better than your stuff" nonsense. We're here to share information and learn from each other.

      Mike, thanks for the thread.

      Stan

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      • #4
        I was helping a friend work on his house and had a hard time holding 1/32" finally realized 1/8" was good enough, it just depends what your working on, I can hold .0005" very easily only when it's necessary the rest of the time it's what will work.

        Comment


        • #5
          Pretty much have to agree with all that's been said so far. Absolutely nothing wrong with working to tenths when necessary, but for most general machining applications I just don't think it is required. We're just a small jobbing shop and machining is only a part of what we do but I would say that for most of our work holding two to three thou is tight and for a lot of jobs we're good if we can hold three to five. Tighter tolerances only slow us down and cost the customer more money.

          I think part of the problem is that we are seeing more jobs specified by engineers and/or purchasers with tighter than necessary tolerances just because there is machinery out there that can consistently work that tight. If it's not needed don't spec it into the job. One only has to hang out on Practical Machinist for a while to get the feeling that there's a lot of extra work being created because of tighter than necessary specs. I may be wrong but that's what I see...
          Keith
          __________________________
          Just one project too many--that's what finally got him...

          Comment


          • #6
            mike4,

            Anybody that works to tighter tolerances than needed is wasting time and money. That said if you are on your own time do what pleases you, but do not knock others work because they do not do it your way.

            Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              I had a drafting teacher impressing on us the importance of knowing, and specifying, what was required. Either too much or too little could get you in trouble. He told about a guy in the engineering office requisitioning a steel plate to put under his chair because it wouldn't roll on the carpet in the office. The shop sent up the plate and charged engineering $250. $250?? WTF?? The engineer had called it out as .250" thinking that was just the same as 1/4". Not to the shop it wasn't. To get .250" the shop ground it and that was the labor cost when all the engineer really need was just a 1/4" cutout plate. So, that was a lesson on understanding and specifying what's really needed for the application and I think is the point Michael is addressing as the OP. Too little is an inadequate job and too much is an over-expensive job. IIRC that's rather like Paul Bocuse, the proponent of nouveau French cuisine touting "Render unto a chicken what's due to a chicken and nothing more."

              If a HSM wants to do more on their own time and for fun that's their own business, or if a business wants to do it on their own dime that's fine but they can't charge a customer for greater accuracy (and time) than required and stay in business long.
              .
              "People will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time they will pick themselves up and carry on" : Winston Churchill

              Comment


              • #8
                Mike4 - any time you make a statement here that is viewed as matter of fact (like this post, for example), you enable the male challenge gene and you will be challenged. Almost immediately alliances will form and the haka phase will begin http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2f...and-haka_sport . Imprecations will fly with the accuracy of a grenade and force of ignorance. The placaters and moralizers will move in like hyenas and sprinkle the holy water of reason and lofty abraidments upon the gathering followed by a disbanding and ill aimed Parthian shots of poor wit and worse humor. Withering epithets linger in the air until the thundering hammer fall of the moderator's ultimate tool sends the players back to the land of reason. Private mail will reverberate with the retelling and revising and justifications for ill public behavior.

                It is the turning of the season. Happens like the ticking of a clock.

                Then someone comes along and writes up a wordy analysis and trite conclusion and the circle is closed until next time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  What has happened there?
                  I was following that thred reading all the interesting things about surface plates till someone showed up and questioned the whole reason to have one.....even though OP clearly stafed that he kind of not only needed it, but needed it to be prety flat.
                  That threw rather educational conversation awfully offtrack.
                  FSWizard - Free Online Speed and Feed Calculator

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                  • #10
                    I work as part of a maintenance department for a paper manufacturer.
                    I'd like to see someone taking pride and getting something spot on, its nearly impossible these days to get something done right.
                    Build it, bodge it, but dont buy it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This probably feeding the troll...............

                      For sure I saw the OP here as the totally intolerant aggressor in the other thread, who came on as if he was actively challenging and denying the need for a piece of precision equipment, despite the clear and plainly stated reason for having it.

                      I don't CARE what tolerances anyone works to..... mine vary with the work.....it might be 100 thou for one job, and a tenth of a thou for another. I DO know the difference, and I know some work including machine rescraping, DOES need the tenths.

                      Possession of something used for a particular type of job does not imply that it MUST BE USED for everything......

                      This thread strikes me as completely disingenuous.

                      I had already forgotten who was teh issue over there, and here it is jammed in our faces again. Well, now I will remember the name and with it a reputation. it would likely have been smarter to never start this thread.
                      1601

                      Keep eye on ball.
                      Hashim Khan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Personally I think that this thread and the other thread got blown up out of all proportion.
                        Mike came into the surface plate thread at post # 21 and asked the simple question
                        "Do all jobs have to be to 0.00015" " or something like that, then the train wreck started and got fanned on by our resident troll.

                        Then he starts this thread and most agree with him, except the few that think they are still answering posts in the other thread.

                        If you study it Mike is right.
                        If you took your truck into a garage for a head gasket and they reworked your exhaust manifold like RC did to his, would you be happy at the $2000 total bill ? But where does it stop, they machined your manifold and probably reground the head but did they scrape the head in ?
                        Does anyone scrape heads in ??

                        Not having a pop at RC for doing his manifold, as many have said this isn't a professional forum but for a newbie reading some of these posts that probably think you have to work to a gnats left bollock ALL the while.

                        Often times a couple of brackets and 6 nails are all that is needed to put a shelf up
                        .

                        Sir John , Earl of Bligeport & Sudspumpwater. MBE [ Motor Bike Engineer ] Nottingham England.



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I am glad that there are still some people here with more than a drop of commonsense on this forum.
                          Thank you Sir John

                          And thanks to the others who replied .

                          J Tiers , you are entitled to your opinion ,I was merely stating as Sir john put it there isnt always the need for high precision , but in some circumstances there is and I am sure that many of us would be able to turn out some very fine parts if we spent the time to do so , again I agree its "horses fo courses".

                          Cant seen what is the problem on either post .

                          RC did a very good job on his manifold , I probably would do a similar thing on my own vehicle.

                          I think that we should all settle down and think long and hard about what several have said and let each member pursue their hobby , or profession as they see fit and not ignore or put down the input of others as we can all still learn things .

                          I have learnt a few things about some members here that I like and some that I didnt expect from others .
                          But when its all boiled down we are all human with faults and its better to get on with each other than just become a bunch of grumpy old farts who just want to bicker over little things.

                          Michael

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            View from the benches. I dont work to tenths mostly, do the odd bearing fit etc but don't we all. I'm often guilty of using tighter tolerance than is needed because I want to practice for those rare occasions I do need to hit tight tolerances but I cut a overlength shaft down to size on a homebrew woodsaw last night by running the motor and putting a angle grinder with a cutting disc to it, but the same shaft had been in the lathe having bearing fits machined on it a few days earlier. So I'm in the the fit should really be whats required, but occasionally we go overboard just trying to better ourselves and practice for the day its needed. I don't think anyone reads this forum and decides its mandatory you need to hit 0.0001" tolerance turning a shaft prior to threading, and if they do, they have comprehension issues and the world will give them a rude awakening without us needing to have big mass threads to protect them from reality and experience will be the best teacher for that lesson. Lets not dumb down the levels of things to protect the rare cases this might apply from this.

                            So, if I see a thread about evaluating a surface plate for machine scraping, I read it with interest as I'm still learning about metrology and gathering that side of my workshop and am taking fledling steps towards machine scraping etc. The op in that thread wanted to evaluate his surface plate to high tolerance, and a few posters pointed out that it was valid for him to need a high accuracy master to do machine scraping work. At no point did I feel offended or think it suggested everyone's work should be done to the same standard. As I had no useful contribution to the knowledge there, I just sat on the sidelines and watched the information build up and I imagine a awful lot of vistors here do the same every day.

                            Here is the deal though, threads like this specific one make me nervous to discuss or post things when I do need high tolerance. I've already become lary about discussing things about surface grinders after the "nobody needs one" threads (although there are a few notable posters who are against this attitude, and I have noted and respect them for that) and I'd hate for people with skills and knowledge beyond what I have to be affected the same way and hold off posting because it might be seen as un-needed and not "home shop" ness. I aspire to improve myself as time goes on, and if there are still processes and techniques I dont know (and there most definitely are), I would like one day to master them too, not just accept my current line of ability as being where I want to stop.

                            Mike, you say you can work to much tighter tolerances when needed, thats great. Please dont put the people off from posting about how others may aquire that level also. This isnt no child left behind here.
                            As you can tell from my username, I dont take myself that seriously, nor do I have a rod stuck up my backside*, if I saw you in person in a pub I'd probably take the rip out of you in a cheeky way with a grin on my face just the same so I feel no need to hide that side of my personality to fit in. So before you dismiss it as the ramblings of someone wrapped too tight and too clipped for the sake of it you might want to factor that in to get my perspective.

                            * Though I did offer this as a option to my employer as a way to keep the floor clean with the workload they expect me to get through
                            Last edited by MrFluffy; 03-07-2013, 07:10 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Stevenson View Post
                              Not having a pop at RC for doing his manifold, as many have said this isn't a professional forum
                              John. Just for the record. You blokes are in full agreeance. His very first sentenance in that post was..

                              Would not know about commercial shops, this is the "Home Shop Machinist" forum as such geared towards the home user who does this sort of stuff for leisure.
                              Only saying, as I know Rich, and he will take that personally.


                              Not speaking for him. (Rich) My best guess he was responding to some thing the resident Nasa / Nist specilist sitting in some run down shack on the peninsulla, proir to post #21?
                              Last edited by Machtool; 03-07-2013, 07:36 AM.

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