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  • engine trouble

    I am building an International deisel engine for my dozer.

    It is the 206 cid model .They also made a 239 cid model with many parts interchange with the 206.

    I put the head on and started to adjust valves. Can't rotate it a full 360. the valves are kissing the pistons,just barely.
    So I am thinking the parts house sent the wrong rods or pistons.

    My question: Anyone know where I can go to find piston and rod dimensions?

    I have the IH manual but it does not show center of wrist pin to top of piston dimension.or con rod center to center dimension.

    If I can find these numbers I can mill valve recesses in the pistons.

    Is there an IH forum out there that I don't know about?

  • #2
    Saw something like this in a friend's truck build, though not at all the same brand.
    Check the pistons themselves, too. In his case, he had flat-topped pistons, and part of the displacement difference was supposed to be in dished ones.
    Just in case it's a difference in piston and/or valves than the stroke or rod length.

    Comment


    • #3
      Dished or domed pistons do NOT change displacement.

      --Doozer
      DZER

      Comment


      • #4
        Pretty brand specific detailed engine information you require, try these IH only forums.

        http://www.redpowermagazine.com/foru...ex.php?act=idx

        http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/


        Originally posted by Doozer View Post
        Dished or domed pistons do NOT change displacement.

        --Doozer
        From what I gleaned from the previous poster's response was that he was referring to combustion chamber volume in which case a piston's dome shape certainly does change displacement volume.
        But of course only chamber volume not engine displacement.
        Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
        Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

        Comment


        • #5
          Are there reliefs in the pistons already? Any in 180 off? And you are dead sure the cam is timed right? Also you sure you have the right head gasket? Some vehicles have different thickness gaskets, many motors I build th pistons actually rise above the deck on tdc. Without a thick enough gasket the pistons would kiss the bottom of the head.


          Originally posted by Doozer View Post
          Dished or domed pistons do NOT change displacement.

          --Doozer

          Actually it does a little bit. A dish or dome does take up cylinder area.

          Andy

          Comment


          • #6
            I have the timing right and the pistons have arrows to the front.
            Used the same cam.Cant remember which rocker arms I used. (Had two and grabbed the closest one)
            I put new sleeves and pistons in,the new pistons have three rings,,two on the old ones.
            I measured top to bottom of pistons but didnt think about top to wrist pin.

            Well I get to tear it down and start over.
            I will check the gasket as well when I open it up.

            Comment


            • #7
              You should replace the gasket after you take it apart, anyway.
              I'm assuming it's an inline engine, if arrows go forward. If not, make sure they're also on the correct side.
              Sounds like they may have more area above the wrist pin, if you're using the same cam. Or the wrong rods, or crank, or the chamber sits lower in relation, or... There's a reason I've never put time into a project car.
              If you have all the old parts, you can always just hold stuff up to compare. At least you know where the problem areas are, it just comes down to finding the exact parts.

              Comment


              • #8
                Used the same cam.Cant remember which rocker arms I used. (Had two and grabbed the closest one)
                Are the rockers the same? The rocker ratio needs to be the same. If not the valve lift will be different.
                Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
                Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

                Comment


                • #9
                  first the dome or the dish on the top of the piston has nothing to do with displacement. compression yes. displacement is a factor of how far you move a certain diameter piston up and down a bore. warts and valleys on the top of it has no effect.

                  now you may have found your problem. the rockers. if you used a rocker arm with a longer ratio you gave the cam more lift.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Willy View Post
                    Are the rockers the same? The rocker ratio needs to be the same. If not the valve lift will be different.



                    ^ What that guy said. If you get an increased rocker ratio the valves on those rockers will open farther and can cause the contact.
                    Andy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bob308 View Post
                      first the dome or the dish on the top of the piston has nothing to do with displacement. compression yes. displacement is a factor of how far you move a certain diameter piston up and down a bore. warts and valleys on the top of it has no effect.

                      now you may have found your problem. the rockers. if you used a rocker arm with a longer ratio you gave the cam more lift.


                      Displacement is how much air/fluid the piston displaces from the cylinder. If it was just the piston slowly moving up and down pushing air out and pulling air in it would be the same. However when you add compression and vacuum to this air the amount of air displaced changes when you have a dish or dome pistons because of the extra or lack of "extra" area.


                      *edit, but like I mentioned earlier it is a very small amount and really never is considered when building an engine. I just want to make the point that there is a slight difference.
                      Last edited by vpt; 10-08-2013, 10:04 AM.
                      Andy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's not a small amount Andy - it's huge and it's one of the greatest factors that separate a race engine from a sluggo,,,

                        but the others are correct in what they are trying to get across to you - the correct way to look at it is the displacement remains the same - it's the volumetric efficiency that changes drastically,,,

                        therefore ----- a 1.6 liter will always be a 1.6 liter no matter what - that's it's rock solid displacement number be it turbo charged and packing in three atmospheres or a 6.5 to 1 compression ratio that's designed to use half bat yearn to run on,

                        there is one displacement variable with the typical piston engine and that is the fact that theoretical displacement does indeed change but it has nothing to do with piston choice or the like, displacement is set in stone by two things and two things only -- bore and stroke,,, BUT, one of these things does change @ higher RPM's and that is stroke,,,

                        with connecting rods holding up the weight of small buildings and then having to return it on the opposite end of the stroke they are getting compressed and stretched accordingly - and all the bearings surfaces are allowing give due to having clearance and oil between them, from the mains to the rod bearings to the piston pin and all the flex involved,,, if you don't think it's a factor just set your deck height for about .010" clearance and then take your engine up to 8,200 rpms and see what happens... that also means it's flexing that much at BDC, that's .020" of extra stroke and yes now you can say that displacement has effectively changed...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post
                          if you don't think it's a factor just set your deck height for about .010" clearance and then take your engine up to 8,200 rpms and see what happens... that also means it's flexing that much at BDC, that's .020" of extra stroke and yes now you can say that displacement has effectively changed...
                          Displacement is definitely going to change in that scenario, it is going to displace things from their original locations.
                          I wouldn't be comfortable making a wager that the rotating assembly would stay within the confines of the block at half that rpm on the OP's engine

                          Steve

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Andy's a honda guy like I am --- the redline on the stock B-1600 is 8,200 RPMS and they are really quite comfortable shifting out @ 8,700 all day long and that's stock...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vpt View Post
                              Displacement is how much air/fluid the piston displaces from the cylinder. If it was just the piston slowly moving up and down pushing air out and pulling air in it would be the same. However when you add compression and vacuum to this air the amount of air displaced changes when you have a dish or dome pistons because of the extra or lack of "extra" area.


                              *edit, but like I mentioned earlier it is a very small amount and really never is considered when building an engine. I just want to make the point that there is a slight difference.
                              Displacement is not how much air is displaced, it's a measurement of volume. The volume does not change as the air pressure changes. A supercharged 440 is still a 440.

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