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  • Shameful shipping company

    My brother purchased a Logan shaper from a guy in Pennsylvania and had it shipped by Estes Express Lines, which has offices all around the country. The seller crated it up, well mounted to the bottom pallet, took pictures of it before the final enclosure was nailed up, and sent it on it's way to Portland, Oregon, where a different, local deliverer brought it to my brothers machine shop in Tillamook. Upon unloading, both my brother and the truck driver observed considerable damage to the outside of the crate. While the driver was there, they pried open the container and surprise! Basically trashed. The crate had obviously rolled around in transit. They will not work with my brother at all, so he will now be forced to hire an attorney to fight them on this. Unfortunately, he may not have insured it. Ugh. I will personally never deal with Estes after the way they treat their cargo and my brother.


    Dan L
    “All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.” (Problems of War and Strategy, Nov 6 1938, published in “Selected Works of Mao Zedong,” 1965)

  • #2
    BRUTAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hope you can come out of this with something.

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    • #3
      Lets see how it was packed in the crate. It is a top heavy load and may have not have been packed correctly.

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      • #4
        The bottom line is that it would likely have been shipped by default as "scrap machinery" with a loss limit IIRC of about $75.

        That seems to be the catch-all category for any used equipment which does not have an active depreciation schedule. If it is used, but is being shipped from a rebuilder, THEN you can get it insured for more.

        Agree that it looks already as if it was not crated well. Maybe put on a too-narrow base, not on the skid correctly, etc, etc. You need to be very paranoid when shipping, but almost nobody is.

        And, yes, it is essentially a total loss and is now scrap metal. Cracks like that in the guideways are not easily repaired.

        It's likely not Estes.... it's ALL of them. They ALL do the very same thing, and they always shove it into the tariff category that gets them the most money without exposing them to losses.
        1601

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan

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        • #5
          May be a dumb question, but not seeing the whole machine if there is other damage, wondering if that slide could be welded back on? (It is the verticle slide of the table from what i could see.)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by sasquatch View Post
            May be a dumb question, but not seeing the whole machine if there is other damage, wondering if that slide could be welded back on? (It is the verticle slide of the table from what i could see.)
            I'm the brother. The repair is in process now, and involves bolting two mild steel (Hot rolled so it won't "unwind" over time) 2 X 2 X 6" square bars with grade 8 cap screws, as many as I can fit inside the saddle, probably 4 per side. The great thing is I'll finally get to scrape the under side of dovetails without bending over backwards to do it! That's because I can take the bars off to scrape them until they fit perfectly. Well, actually just the side without the gib, since it does no good to scrape the gib side to perfection.
            In preparation I'll make a seat for the bars with 1/16" deep register and a tight fit.

            I had to make a new elevating screw but was able to salvage the cross feed screw. The rest of the damage was minimal.

            The real shame of it was that the machine was in such great shape. I figure at my shop rate it will end up costing $2K to fix it right, and Estes wants their shipping money.

            Big fat chance!
            Glen

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            • #7
              The bottom line is that it would likely have been shipped by default as "scrap machinery" with a loss limit IIRC of about $75.
              I only wish! Because I approached the broker first I lost several days, and their rules say within three days. So they won't return any of the $850 I paid for it and expect me to pay the $683 shipping bill to boot. To get any of the $850 back I'd have to show that I'd already paid the shipping money, so since I absolutely refuse to pay someone to demolish a beautiful machine I can't submit a damage claim.

              The point is they stack everything their way, they should have secured the load, but I have to pay. If they take longer to get it here that's tough, but I have to file the claim within tree days.

              If the load wasn't crated right they should have refused it. They destroyed the original pallet it was bolted to and tipped the wreckage up onto a new pallet, how do I know? The pallet it came on has no bolt holes in it.

              I'll talk with my lawyer about how to make sure they don't try to damage my good credit, because I had nothing to do with crating it or driving it across country and there is no way I'd pay them unless the original goal was to destroy a nice machine tool.

              It wasn't.

              But maybe that was what Estes had in mind.

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              • #8
                Hey Dan L.
                Sorry to hear about the damage.
                But, thanks to my super detective work, I've obtained video footage of your brother's shaper leaving Pennsylvania.
                Enjoy.
                Machinery Shipping

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by partsproduction View Post
                  I'll talk with my lawyer about how to make sure they don't try to damage my good credit, because I had nothing to do with crating it or driving it across country and there is no way I'd pay them unless the original goal was to destroy a nice machine tool.

                  It wasn't.

                  But maybe that was what Estes had in mind.
                  I think you should pay them then sue.

                  I believe the law is NOT going to be on your side with your current strategy.

                  I doubt the shipper is required to tear the shipment apart to make sure it is
                  packaged correctly. There is a good chance that the gentleman that bundled it up
                  didn't secure it enough and as stated I really don't know how the shipper is responsible for that.

                  Just saying
                  John Titor, when are you.

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                  • #10
                    I think they all suck. I had ups freight cargo ship a lathe. They did all the packaging and shipping and basically look like they tipped it over and broke off all the good parts. I'm 6 months into the process and have pre and post shipping photos. They continue to deny liability. I imagine if I go the small claims process they will fall back on the 10 cents a pound freight liability limit and I'm still screwed. Even if I did win the correct amount it will likely be difficult to collect. I worry sometimes I will end up like Michael Douglas in the movie "Falling Down"

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                    • #11
                      I know shippers can and will refuse improperly secure loads.

                      Let me rephrase that: The GOOD shippers with quality competent drivers will refuse improperly secured loads.

                      I've dealt with high-end freight lines, and bottom-rung cash-and-haul lines. Estes is not high on my list of quality freight-lines, often times we'd call up for a truck and get a promise from Dispatch. 6PM rolls around no truck. Call dispatch only to hear "well he went by your place at 3PM and the gate was locked" or some other excuse. The gate-was-locked excuse was hilarious as we were all sitting there on the dock playing cards with the gate wide open, facing a busy main street.

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                      • #12
                        No, it's not the freight companies responsibility to make sure it is packed well. It sounds like it is the sellers fault. He did not pack it correctly.

                        When you file a claim you do not have to surrender the shipped item. The money can be used towards repairing.

                        You are just going to have to pay them. If you sue them you will have to prove negligence on their part, good luck with that.

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                        • #13
                          Good luck in approaching Estes with your lawyer, it looks like they've already covered their butt pretty well with their lawyers.

                          Before spending more time and money in order to pursue this, have a good look at the rules tariff page from their site just so that you are familiar with the contract that you and the shipper entered into with Estes.

                          I certainly did not read all of the rules but perhaps you should at least take note of some of the guidelines that are spelled out under their "conditions" in order to be better armed in your attempt at compensation for your loss.
                          Not that it will fly, but personally I think you would have better luck in pursuing the individual that sold and shipped the item to you rather than the trucking company.

                          http://www.estes-express.com/resourc...es-tariff.html

                          Each loaded pallet must be strapped, tied, glued or otherwise secured by the Consignor, so as to form a unit load of sufficient strength to withstand the normal hazards of transportation, and when blocking or bracing is necessary to insure safe transportation, such blocking or bracing must be installed by and at the expense of the Consignor.
                          The customer responsible for payment of freight charges is not permitted to offset any part of the freight charges by the value of any outstanding loss and damage, overcharge or over-collected claims.
                          Personally I think the shipper erred in palletizing the load and he should also have demanded that the load be secured with strapping or chains to the truck deck in order to prevent the out of balance load from tumbling during shipment.
                          Lets face it, one hard stop or evasive maneuver will send an unsecured pallet like this past the balance point. Unfortunately it is not up to the trucking company to determine this. Trucks carry thousands of different items daily, it would not be unreasonable for freight carriers to be required to demonstrate specialized knowledge of each item's peculiarities, thus the requirement for securely palletizing the load.
                          Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
                          Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

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                          • #14
                            I had excellent Luck with American Freight Shippers they specialize in shipping machines. They pick up and deliver with trucks that have lift gates that handle the weight and drop of where you tell them never had any damage

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                            • #15
                              My original question, GEP answered (a company that specializes or is at least familiar with machinery moving).

                              Each loaded pallet must be strapped, tied, glued or otherwise secured by the Consignor, so as to form a unit load of sufficient strength to withstand the normal hazards of transportation, and when blocking or bracing is necessary to insure safe transportation, such blocking or bracing must be installed by and at the expense of the Consignor.
                              I don't work in the trucking business but have spent my fair share of time loading and unloading enclosed trailers...while I understand the quote from Estes Willy provided, I have some difficulty understanding how that is possibly supposed to work.
                              Strictly based on what is written, the pallet is already made up/loaded and must now be secured by the Consignor.
                              The way I would interpret this would be I can go into/onto the trailer and fasten said pallet down to the deck. Is this really going to happen? I mean one way the Consignor has to put their straps on it and those may or may not be of sufficient strength or properly installed/placed. Those straps may interfere with other items to be loaded etc. etc. and those straps are certainly never going to return to their owner.
                              Another way, are they really going to give me time to lag bolt that pallet down to the deck? Or just let me fasten it as I see fit at all? I mean then you are talking potential damage to their trailer...but how it is written, they want me to do that as consignor.
                              EVEN if that were to happen what happens at the first transfer point when that now well fastened pallet has to be moved through a warehouse and placed on a different truck for another leg of the journey? All that work of fastening is very, very unlikely to be redone by the trucking company's personnel.

                              Or, if blocking and fastening is needed, are they, Estes, in this case, going to do that so as to ensure it is done properly but at your expense? In which case, based on the event told by the OP, how could you trust them? Especially if it is only the driver...I doubt very much he/she is going to take the time to do all of the above, too time consuming.

                              And none of the above even touches on the liability to their employees or anyone else if the work the Consignor did causes damage, enroute, of any sort.

                              Maybe I am just completely misunderstanding the terms, phrasing and obligations of various parties involved.
                              Last edited by RussZHC; 01-01-2014, 12:01 PM.

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