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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jon Heron View Post
    I listed it in the first response
    Cheers,
    Jon
    Ah, missed that.... Interesting is the fact that the great majority of units I installed were Bosch. I have done other makes also.

    Bosch made 3 lines, the Aquastar sold thru homecenters for DIY, The pro tankless, sold through plumbing supplys, and a commercial line.e

    The 635 you have is a pro series tankless, but not a commercial series unit. A real good unit though.

    For what its worth, the unit I had was a 425 pro series, smaller (130K btu) and standard venting type. I didn't need the additional BTU's.
    I no longer have that house, moved to SC back in March. Had the tankless for almost 10 years at that point.
    Last edited by Sparky_NY; 01-12-2014, 02:44 PM.

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    • #47
      We got one of these a couple of months ago: http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/

      It's an electric water heater that uses a heat pump to heat the water -- the "air conditioner in reverse." So far it has worked very well, with no noticeable increase in our electric bill since we're no longer running the boiler with its associated electrical demands.

      I'm not a big fan of tankless heaters.
      ----------
      Try to make a living, not a killing. -- Utah Phillips
      Don't believe everything you know. -- Bumper sticker
      Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. -- Will Rogers
      There are lots of people who mistake their imagination for their memory. - Josh Billings
      Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
      Don't own anything you have to feed or paint. - Hood River Blackie

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      • #48
        Hi SGW
        From the How it Works section of that link:
        The integrated compressor and evaporator use a fan to draw in ambient heat from surrounding air to heat refrigerant. Then the heated refrigerant runs through coils that wrap the tank all the way to the bottom, transferring heat into the water tank. This innovative process creates the same amount of hot water as a traditional electric water heater, while reducing your heating expenses up to 62%—a savings of $365* per year.
        So basically in the winter when you are heating your house, this "innovative process" uses that heat as a source of BTUs to heat
        the water, and then the heating system runs a little more to replace that heat.
        Location: Long Island, N.Y.

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        • #49
          He is using warm air from his house to heat his water, unless he is far enough south he had a air to air outside heat pump. The evaporator is cooling off the air gathering heat in the process, and the condenser side is heating his water. I remember the time I saw a innovative farmer run a water loop system through his chicken house, and then dumped the water into a large stock tank in his basement where it was pumped back out again. He had taken apart an air to air heat pump and placed the outside coil into the water filled stock tank. I was there to recharge the system with R-22. It worked great to heat his house with "Free" heat. ONLY the chicken house was heated with propane. Granted the propane only kicked in on those really cold days but it was not really free.
          Retired - Journeyman Refrigeration Pipefitter - Master Electrician

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          • #50
            I don't have experience with tankless water heaters, but I thought they were generally for point-of-use, which would be very efficient and fast-acting. Here is information:
            http://www.gotankless.com/point-of-u...er-heater.html
            http://www.grainger.com/product/EEMA...T82?s_pp=false

            My electric hot water heater is in my kitchen living space, so all of the heat just supplements the other heating sources which are a combination of wood, electric, and kerosene. I can fairly easily repair or replace my HWH myself, and IIRC it was purchased in 1989 for about $300 and actually installed around 1994, and it still works fine. I had a problem originally because I had used iron pipe for unions to a copper system, and it suffered from galvanic corrosion. But I cleaned the anode rods and replaced the connections with brass, and it's been fine ever since.

            The use of heat pumps (geothermal) and solar for hot water during the warm season are very good and probably less expensive than the tankless whole house systems.

            And I really hate to work on those systems, because it's a "tankless" job... (Sorry, couldn't resist)
            http://pauleschoen.com/pix/PM08_P76_P54.png
            Paul , P S Technology, Inc. and MrTibbs
            USA Maryland 21030

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            • #51
              Hi wmgeorge
              Yes, I understand that it uses warm air from the house. The point I was trying to make is that the hot water heater is being
              supplemented by the home heating system. I'll bet they don't include that cost into their efficiency calculations.
              Location: Long Island, N.Y.

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              • #52
                Had a salesman (woman actually) come out to the house yesterday with info on these tankless heaters. Doesn't look very promising. This company only rents, rent includes basic installation maintenance and repairs, replacement if necessary (which she said is frequent) but there would be a severe cost of upgrading the gas piping into my house and the monthly rental fee is more then I spend on electricity for an "old Fashion" electric water heater. At least she was honest about it.

                Unfortunately there isn't any way to put in a gas water (tank type) heater that will pass code inspection so the electric heater is staying put.
                The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

                Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

                Southwestern Ontario. Canada

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by loose nut View Post
                  Unfortunately there isn't any way to put in a gas water (tank type) heater that will pass code inspection so the electric heater is staying put.
                  Have you included direct (thru the wall) and power vent (using PVC) heaters in your search for a code compliant heater? I am not familiar with your Canadian codes but here they can be installed nearly anywhere.
                  Don Young

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by michigan doug View Post
                    They are more "efficient", in that they have zero to trivial storage tank losses.

                    On the other hand, let's say your normal gas water heater is sited in the conditioned space of your house, like a central, first floor utility room. Where does the "waste" heat go? Yeah, it heats your house. So, in the fall, winter and spring, you're reducing the amount of heat the furnace has to supply.
                    True. Which is why I just moved our water heater outside.

                    The air conditioning bills where I live are much more than heating bills, and the heat coming off the water heater (which was originally located in the kitchen) in the summer weren't helping anything.

                    Though the heater is now outside, there's only three feet of pipe now from the heater to the bathtub... no more waiting for the hot water to make it to the shower.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Don Young View Post
                      Have you included direct (thru the wall) and power vent (using PVC) heaters in your search for a code compliant heater? I am not familiar with your Canadian codes but here they can be installed nearly anywhere.
                      I don't have a basement only a crawlspace and it isn't high enough for a gas water heater (the electric one sits in a pit, can't do that with gas). There really isn't any other place to put a water heater in my house, at least one that will meet code.
                      The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

                      Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

                      Southwestern Ontario. Canada

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Loose nut,
                        have you considered the point of use instant hot water heaters that are electric? I have 1-1/2 baths a clothes washer, dishwasher and utility sink in the basement. I have 4 of the electric heaters 1, for the 1/2 bath, 2, for the main bath, 3, for the basement, 4, for the kitchen they are small in size and it does not take a lot of electricity for each one.
                        And remember if the service to the house is 150-200amps the total connected load is not all on at the same time so you could run a couple at the same time and not see a great increase to the electric bill.
                        Just thinking outside of the box on this one it has worked for the wife and I now for 3 years, never a cold shower unless she says I need it.

                        mr fixit for the family
                        Chris

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                        • #57
                          Tank heaters are right up there with box springs and carpeting. Uniquely Idiotic.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Jon Heron View Post
                            None of the anti scald devices in my house are adjustable, they are built into the shower faucets and consist of a sliding bronze cylinder between the hot and cold, I found the only way to "adjust" them was to remove it and put a dimple on the cylinder with a centre punch then re install it, the dimple on the cylinder makes a friction fit so it wont slide anymore. I still have to do the one in the shower downstairs. As it is now, to have a good shower in that one you have to run the hot water in the sink at the same time your showering so the anti scald doesn't kick off the heater...
                            None of these things are myths, they are facts and I am not alone in my disappointment with tankless heaters.
                            Cheers,
                            Jon
                            Jon is correct. The only adjustment in a shower mixer would be maximum output temperature, a function of the limits in the valve which is purely mechanical and has no effect on temperature beyond what I describe below.

                            'Anti scald valves' are a generic description of two separate but parallel functions often found in shower mixers.

                            There are thermostatic mixing valves which do a great job of regulating temperatures in steady state flow conditions but are completely unable to respond to rapid changes in operating conditions which may be either pressure imbalance between the hot and cold supply or rapid temperature changes.

                            Slower changes in temperature are generally due to inability of the hot water supply system to keep up with demand. The thermostatic mixer will generally decrease the flow of cold water in an effort to keep the outlet temperature constant. They cannot respond to spikes in flow or temperature.

                            Pressure balance valves respond very rapidly to pressure fluctuations. If someone flushes a toilet, thus reducing the available cold water to mix with the hot, you get hair removed. A pressure balancing valve will respond to this and adjust accordingly.

                            The very best mixers, read expensive, will have both features.


                            If you want to install a circulating system, another alternative is a gravity circulation system. By sloping the supply and return lines, installing a flow restricter, ie a balancing valve, and a timer with a solenoid valve to stop recirculation at night if you wish, the circulation takes place without much problem at all. The supply and return lines should be insulated. The return line does not need to be larger than 1/2” pipe. You may install a check valve in the return, but it may need service to allow it too operate freely due to lime deposits. I have generally not installed them. Using a smaller return will prevent most reverse feeding of water from the bottom of the supply tank, which is where it need to be connected. This system will not work without a pump in a tank-less. Well, it may circulate, but it will never have sufficient flow to cause the heater to turn on.

                            paul
                            paul
                            ARS W9PCS

                            Esto Vigilans

                            Remember, just because you can doesn't mean you should...
                            but you may have to

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Tilaran View Post
                              Tank heaters are right up there with box springs and carpeting. Uniquely Idiotic.
                              Esplain please?
                              The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

                              Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

                              Southwestern Ontario. Canada

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mr Fixit View Post
                                Loose nut,
                                have you considered the point of use instant hot water heaters that are electric? I have 1-1/2 baths a clothes washer, dishwasher and utility sink in the basement. I have 4 of the electric heaters 1, for the 1/2 bath, 2, for the main bath, 3, for the basement, 4, for the kitchen they are small in size and it does not take a lot of electricity for each one.
                                And remember if the service to the house is 150-200amps the total connected load is not all on at the same time so you could run a couple at the same time and not see a great increase to the electric bill.
                                Just thinking outside of the box on this one it has worked for the wife and I now for 3 years, never a cold shower unless she says I need it.

                                mr fixit for the family
                                Chris
                                That was the first thing I looked at but by the time I get through the purchase/installation costs the pay back is a long time. When the current heater dies then I could go that way, the fact that they are not on all at once may make it do-able.
                                The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

                                Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

                                Southwestern Ontario. Canada

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