OT: So much for Honda reliability

[martik]

My 2003 Accord had the check engine light on for year or so, figured it was just an emissions issue but finally checked it. Code P0341: Cam position sensor out of spec. Set to TDC, pulled the valve cover and sure enough, the cam sprocket marks don't line up which means the chain is stretched - big bucks! Ironically, I bought this car cuz it had the chain rather than a belt, which needs replacement approx every 100k km. But I guess the math works out even since the chain replacement service costs 3x as much as a belt and I've avoided 2 belt changes lol. Apparently, after talking with some Honda techs, the chain is very susceptible to stretching if one runs low on oil, which I have done a couple times (yeah it burns oil too) and the oil change interval should be increased to twice what the manual recommends. In any case, I am pretty disappointed with Honda.

If anyone's interested, here's a video on the chain replacement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQSn4FuUVXE

[Old Hat]

I'm on my fourth Accord.
84, 86, 93, now 99.

Engines have all the power I need when I need it, and better gas milage than any
other cars familly members have had save a little red 91 Tercel.

I did loose the 93 when I went way too far on the second timing belt.
Clearly that was my fault, as running low on oil was yours.

But you blame Honda.

[martik]

Running low on oil, which I define as at the add mark, ie: less than 1 qt low, a couple times in over 100k miles should NOT trash a timing chain. Not to mention the oil burning problem.

[Joe_B]

So let me get this straight. The check engine light is on for a year, you run it low on oil, finally there is a problem and you fault Honda for a reliability issue? Mmmkay...

[MotorradMike]

I would expect Honda to be disappointed with you.
Ignoring clear warnings and maintenance on a 10 year old engine - then blaming the manufacturer, is ridiculous.

[martik]

What warning? There was no warning. Whether the CEL was on for 1 year or 5 years is irrelevant, the chain was already stretched when the code came on and this should not happen when following the manufacturers recommended oil change intervals. This is actually a fairly common problem with gen7 2.4L engines as is the 1 qt/1,000 mile oil consumption which dealers call "normal".

[Old Hat]

To be fair all timing chains lenghten (play in the pins not strechting actually).
If this car has valve train issues, maybe extra drag has been there all along.

But on any given car, a low-oil surprise should be a singular occurance,
and If I couldn't hit a station in half a mile I'd pull off the road.
It's hard for the casual observer to not be suspicious of neglect.

===============
I was going to retire the 93 in a year, I gambled and lost.
My fault, just mine.

[kitno455]

I notice, nowhere in the original rant, did you tell us the vehicle's mileage.

allan

[JoeLee]

So let me get this straight. The check engine light is on for a year, you run it low on oil, finally there is a problem and you fault Honda for a reliability issue? Mmmkay...

Hmmmm is right!!

JL...........

[Joe Rogers]

Chevrolet (GM) has timing chain issues. All driven by improper maintenance by owners IMNSHO.
Can't tell you how many vehicles I see with NO oil on the dip stick...
Joe

[vpt]

I replaced the timing belt in our 02 honda odyssey this spring or last fall, I forget. It was about a 2 hour job.

I didn't think honda had timing chains in anything anymore. Weird.

[MotorradMike]

I replaced the timing belt in our 02 honda odyssey this spring or last fall, I forget. It was about a 2 hour job.

I didn't think honda had timing chains in anything anymore. Weird.

Manufacturers appear to be going back to chains.
Both our vehicles have chains now. Toyota Corolla and Acura CSX.
I think the reason for belts was to reduce noise but I'm not sure.
I think designing a belt into an interference engine is a mistake, all Honda engines are interference AFAIK.

[A.K. Boomer]

Running low on oil, which I define as at the add mark, ie: less than 1 qt low, a couple times in over 100k miles should NOT trash a timing chain. Not to mention the oil burning problem.

Running low on oil won't trash the chain, chains are actually the very last thing to go, now connecting rod bearings or camshaft mains --- that's another story, they are the first to go,,,

the very bottom part of your chain is way higher than the full oil level itself, so what does that tell you? the chain gets lubricated by either a separate small pressure port or they just let the oil mist from the head and #1 cam main slinging off it's pulley and draining handle it, there's no huge demands and all the links and such hold oil like crazy... look at motorcycle drive chains and that's out in the open with no additional lube, you could probably run a well saturated engine chain with no additional lube for 100 miles without any issues at all...

What get's chains is either poor oil choice or not changing it for long intervals --- BUT- all chains will wear, yet you can prevent premature failure with proper high quality lube and frequent oil changes,,, and by the way - if you really want to try and protect your engine and it's chain driven you need to change the oil more so than if you were running a belt --- opps, there goes your offset savings (if any)

chains and belts are like apples and oranges,,, chains might make it longer but are very expensive when needing replacement, although I have used kit's to where they had a link, you just separate the old chain, attach it to the new one - rotate the engine in direction of run while carefully feeding new chain on beginning of cam side drive and loading the return with a bungie cord attached to the hood till old chain brings up new one right at cam, connect, done deal, still does not do a thing for tensioners but if you ran out of travel due to a chain that's way stretched it can net you another 100,000 miles or more without having to go way into it...

I'll take a belt any day of the week, there is a hidden cost in doing business with a chain, all that wear has to go somewhere,
They are by far the single biggest contributor to increased engine wear in critical components, meaning they produce more material in their lifespan than any other engine component going -------------- they are continuously throwing out hash/metalics in the oil that the rest of your engine has to live in, mainly rod and main bearings that will absorb these tiny particulates into their soft babbitt material - in the beginning it's not as critical as this is what the bearings are designed to handle, but in higher mileage vehicles this material becomes saturated with these hardened particulates,,, all whilst the babbit layer starts to thin down,,, what this equates too is hardened material wearing against your crankshaft main and rod journals,,, not a very wise decision...

The more you know about chains the more you will like belts... so you have to change them more often, so you have to have a cam seal, get over it , many have change intervals now of well over 100,000 miles, that's more than yesteryears engines used to last,,, plus you keep them changed and your entire engine will outlast a chain type engine ---

crank seals have to be replaced on timing chain engines anyways and it's around the time you would be replacing a timing belt, so you still have to pull all the other drive belts and the main pulley anyhow, might as well do a belt and the cam seal while your at it and have a superior design when your done...

As you can tell iv been at this awhile and have formed an opinion

[saltmine]

The root of the problem is both poor maintenance, and sorry engineering. I use synthetic oil in my car. At 162,000 miles it doesn't use or leak a drop of oil. Of course it's a 'merican car. With the synthetic oil, I can go 25,000 miles between oil changes. The oil stays relatively clean and the level doesn't drop, even after 25,000 miles. My old junker (Jap cars are technologically superior) has a timing chain. So far, the only thing I've had to change on the engine is the serpentine belt, and the spark plugs (twice, in 162K miles). I love to hear about people who think they're cool buying Japanese and European trash....only to find out they have been had by the media.

[A.K. Boomer]

I replaced the timing belt in our 02 honda odyssey this spring or last fall, I forget. It was about a 2 hour job.

I didn't think honda had timing chains in anything anymore. Weird.

Yup, M.Mike's right as many manufacturers are going back to chain,,, Honda is getting into them with just about everything...

no matter the system people will ignore it, chains might make it initially longer but believe me it will still be an interference engine when the chain wraps itself around the crank,,, except as in the case of running a belt and just having to replace a few bent valves the chain will take out the crank and block and front timing cover and most likely snap the cam... not a pretty sight and you can forget repairing it...