OT: So much for Honda reliability

[A.K. Boomer]

The root of the problem is both poor maintenance, and sorry engineering. I use synthetic oil in my car. At 162,000 miles it doesn't use or leak a drop of oil. Of course it's a 'merican car. With the synthetic oil, I can go 25,000 miles between oil changes. The oil stays relatively clean and the level doesn't drop, even after 25,000 miles. My old junker (Jap cars are technologically superior) has a timing chain. So far, the only thing I've had to change on the engine is the serpentine belt, and the spark plugs (twice, in 162K miles). I love to hear about people who think they're cool buying Japanese and European trash....only to find out they have been had by the media.

No media here, just a guy who's spun a wrench on just about everything on the planet, and in doing so can honestly say nobody comes close to what the Japanese were turning out in the 90's ------ nobody...

so many with over 400,000 miles on them with just simple maintenance and still going strong,,, that's both personal vehicles and customers... now I believe the playing field is changing some, but if your talking that era they had everything beat by a pretty fair margin... they got it down in so many ways the only real way to kill one is to "sludge it out"

run cheap oil and don't change it enough and they will start to build up a "coking" in the piston rings - it will gridlock them, then they will start consuming oil, this leads to lowering the fuels octane and pre-ignition/detonation, then they will die a slow horrible death.... this is more apparent of the little Japanese engines due to the fact that most of them are actually pulling a few ponies out of a smaller mill, so good oil that does not thermally breakdown is extra critical...

not as crucial on crude oversized sluggo engines that are replying on larger displacement to get the same job done...

[vpt]

That is sad, I like my timing belts.

[Old Hat]

No media here, just a guy who's spun a wrench on just about everything on the planet, and in doing so can honestly say nobody comes close to what the Japanese were turning out in the 90's ------ nobody...

...

Agreed!
Not just Cars, Ever use a Kuraki, or an OKK built in the 90's?
If Cincinnatti and Kearney & Treaker hadn't gone afoul
they'd still be hard pressed to match this kind of quallity.

[kendall]

Manufacturers appear to be going back to chains.
Both our vehicles have chains now. Toyota Corolla and Acura CSX.
I think the reason for belts was to reduce noise but I'm not sure.
I think designing a belt into an interference engine is a mistake, all Honda engines are interference AFAIK.

Most often when a belt is worn out, it breaks or slips, no good on an interference engine. When chains wear, they reduce performance but generally don't break until long after a 'normal' person would have the engine checked out.
What really gets me is when people argue that there is no reason at all to change a timing chain on a modern engine because the computer can adjust.

[Old Hat]

What really gets me is when people argue that there is no reason at all to change a timing chain on a modern engine because the computer can adjust.

Oh My!
Get with the program man, Computers can correct anything!
Just ask my neihbor, dunt know North from South.
Dunt know rivers flow into lake Michigan not out of it.
All but two.
Heck doesn't know there are other Great lakes!
Thinks that's a theme park out by the Dells.

[A.K. Boomer]

Im hearing you with a conventional set up -- they maybe just be talking about ignition timing or something due to the layout but will not help cam timing,

that being said im sure there's some computer controlled VVT that will do both ignition and cam timing adjustments as needed... therefor it "might" be fully capable of adjusting for cam chain wear just by the feedback from the cam/crank position sensors...

[Old Hat]

I can't picture anything under a million bucks that will keep the valving in time,
once a belt or chain has grown in lenght.
I supose an idler-arm that would crowd the lead side could acheive that.....
but that would be some large expen$e no?

[needlenose]

I wonder how much of the move to timing chains is driven by the "consumer" mentality prevelant today. Most people don't keep a car long enough to get to 200K. If Honda can introduce a solution that will keep more cars out of a shop between 0-100K, consumers will consider it a more reliable vehicle. At least it will help with those little reviews that "consumer institutes" put out rating vehicle reliability.

All the Hondas I've owned have been belts. My Civic(D16Y8) and my CR-V(B20Z) are just shy of 260K. Both are '99s. Both the D and B series Honda engines are rock solid. I've never owned any of the others.

[Old Hat]

I say belts are the superior design. Not withstanding human dimwits.

Once a chain's infinite wear begins to stack up, it starts to ride higher up on the teeth.
Once it starts to ride higher up on the teeth, it's got increasing rub on the lead side
of the cam gear and the trailing side of the crank gear.

I remember counless chain jobs on GM's for many of my friends in high school.
Chain wear ain't linear! If you graphed a curve it would make a great ride at 6 flags.

=================
Nearly all high-end high-accuracy, high performance machinetools now have timing belts
in the primary side of the spindle drive. Many are using timing belts now for the table screws as well.

[A.K. Boomer]

I can't picture anything under a million bucks that will keep the valving in time,
once a belt or chain has grown in lenght.
I supose an idler-arm that would crowd the lead side could acheive that.....
but that would be some large expen$e no?

So your not familiar with Variable valve timing engines? they are on just about everything now... just a matter of how they are controlling them --- some are just centrifugal/mechanical but other's are computer controlled hydraulically actuated,,, full control over the cams position in relationship to the cranks... stretched belt or chain or not.

[goose]

I believe, to an extent, timing belts have become a damper on resale values of today's cars. Nobody wants to deal with that problem ( regular maintainence) at a cost of often $1000 plus when the vehicle is headed down a steep decline in blue book value. Neither seller or buyer are motivated to hold on to or purchase what is regarded as huge potential headache.

I, myself, back on the day would go for all that comprehensive scheduled maintainence, timing belt, gasket between engine and tranny, replace all the rubber, all that happy ho-ho. But when you consider you're spending $1000 - $1400 service on a car that might be worth 10 grand or less, it loses it's appeal.
Just dump the thing on some fool who gets excited over brake dust and faded paint, and go buy a new one.

[Old Hat]

Just dump the thing on some fool who gets excited over brake dust and faded paint, and go buy a new one.

North Carolina! Is that the new gold-rush?
City hall here can't mainain it's own properly, due to a quarter of the city is abandoned.
I have to do my own roofing, at my age, a professional job i$ beyound reach.
And there are tarps over a few roofs on every block now.

Sure I'll run out and buy a new car tomorrow!

[A.K. Boomer]

I believe, to an extent, timing belts have become a damper on resale values of today's cars. Nobody wants to deal with that problem ( regular maintainence) at a cost of often $1000 plus when the vehicle is headed down a steep decline in blue book value. Neither seller or buyer are motivated to hold on to or purchase what is regarded as huge potential headache.

I, myself, back on the day would go for all that comprehensive scheduled maintainence, timing belt, gasket between engine and tranny, replace all the rubber, all that happy ho-ho. But when you consider you're spending $1000 - $1400 service on a car that might be worth 10 grand or less, it loses it's appeal.
Just dump the thing on some fool who gets excited over brake dust and faded paint, and go buy a new one.

first time around belt change on a typical honda or toyota is about 200 bucks parts and labor,,, that's if the seals area all holding their own and the tensioners and water pump are fine, and generally they are all in perfect condition...

second time around you do have to pay the fiddler some, entire timing belt kit with water pump and seal replacement,

but still generally about 400 to 450. the more complex the engine and the price goes up --- toss in stinking balancer shaft seals and belts and the price goes up more --- also a good time to do a valve adjustment as in many a case the V.C. has to removed to get the upper timing cover off so yet again bill can get up there some...

small price to pay for having a quality engine,,, it's a shame that people are so negligent that it will have an outcome in future designs, so guys like me and Andy will have to run chains due to the sloth-ness of the typical public, and have to run all our other engine components in hash...

You can take all the other engine components combined and they do not put out no where near the particulates that the one timing chain does... every time Iv had to do an oil change on a customers car with a chain I take the oil out in the sun and show them why it's so critical to stick to the change intervals --- when they see the infamous "metalic halo" it seems to get the point across,,, im with Andy, chains suck.

[Highpower]

So your not familiar with Variable valve timing engines? they are on just about everything now... just a matter of how they are controlling them --- some are just centrifugal/mechanical but other's are computer controlled hydraulically actuated,,, full control over the cams position in relationship to the cranks... stretched belt or chain or not.

Exactly. Older Hondas with timing belts used the VTEC system. (Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control) Newer Hondas require timing chains in part because of the newer VTC system that changes the phase of the camshaft itself, rather than switching to an extra set of cam lobes on the VTEC engines.

[radkins]

As some have already said give me a belt any day over a chain! Of course I do my own maintenance so labor costs are not an issue but chains are no cheaper and no more reliable than belts in the long run! The big difference is that by the time the belt is reaching it's change mileage the timing has moved by only a small amount while the chain, although it may still last longer, is usually way off by that time. The point is that while the chain might SEEM to be lasting longer it's really not if a person really wants to maintain proper cam timing, I think most folks would be very surprised to see how much the timing has drifted on the chain driven valve train by the time a belt reaches it change schedule!




Pardon me if I drift a bit off-topic here but a pet peeve of mine has for years been the composite (plastic/Aluminum) factory sprockets vs the all metal aftermarket replacements on a chain driven engine. It seems NO ONE wants to put that "cheap plastic" timing gear back on their engine and it's extremely rare to find anyone who wants the factory type sprockets, the last time I tried to order a factory type replacement (at AutoZone) the guy laughed at me and then told "that's what you want to get away from", but really is it? Think about it, those composite/plastic sprockets are NOT used to save production costs from the factory and are in fact costlier than a cast metal, although I would imagine it would be a negligible difference and hardly a consideration, but rather they are used because they are quieter, maintain proper timing longer and generally last longer vs the auto parts store type metal replacements. Yet most owners would be horrified at the thought of the mechanic not "up-grading" to all metal sprockets! I have seen this many times and I know from experience that even the "name brand" all metal replacement sprockets will not last nearly as long as the composite/plastic sprockets, the last one I tore into barely had 60,000 miles on the replacement and those teeth were worn almost sharp enough to cut yourself on! This is not an isolated case, I have seen it over and over but still the myth that the composite sprockets need to be replaced with metal persists! The problem is these junky things are cast iron and soft cast iron at that, they not only wear rapidly causing a loss of proper timing almost from the first day but all that metal that gets ground off of them ends up directly into the oil and from there it can easily end up embedded in bearings, etc. A racing type steel sprocket designed for high performance engines is better and a LOT stronger than either the factory type or the iron replacements but even they will lose timing as fast or even faster than the factory sprockets and cost a great deal more than either type. In the case of the Ford Taurus I was talking about earlier, getting barely 60,000 miles (never mind the fact most of even that time was with the timing drifting from the factory marks!) from that metal sprocket vs the 185,000 that was on the factory original when it was replaced does not sound like a very wise "up-grade" to me! I warned him when he had me install the thing but nothing would convince him until a couple of years later when we tore it down again because of the noise it was making, he replaced the engine at that point.