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need help wiring forward reverse universal motor switch

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  • need help wiring forward reverse universal motor switch

    I bought an old Toledo-Beaver pipe threader wired for 115 volts. It was just wired for forward with a regular light switch. I bought a forward reverse switch that is for a Rigid 300 pipe threader and it physically fits perfectly. Unfortunately, I am having a brain cramp when it comes to wiring it up. The four leads coming from the motor are not color coded. Two of the wires go to brushes. They are the ones with the yellow tape on in the picture.



    The other two I metered at .5 ohms.

    This is a wiring diagram for the switch.



    Here are a couple of pictures just in case showing continuity with the jumpers off.





    If I switch the wires going to the brushes the motor does run in reverse. Any help or thoughts would really be appreciated. I have spent many hours searching but without knowing the colors of those wires I am lost. I'm hoping not to let the smoke out since I could use it the way it is with just the forward switch. Thanks.
    Last edited by Ridgerunner; 02-27-2015, 05:34 PM.

  • #2
    Here is a picture of the motor tag.

    Comment


    • #3
      You can reverse a universal motor by reversing ONLY the armature (brush wires, typically) OR only the stator. Reversing both doe nothing, it already runs on AC, after all.

      So the switch has to reverse the brush wires relative to the stator wires, which means generally brush wires are connected to the center terminals of the switch you illustrated. Wires from the right side pair of terminals go to where the brush wires normally would go to.

      Might be good to shut off before reversing.... otherwise it is a direct reverse at speed. That is both rough on the motor and it also draws a lot of current.
      1601

      Keep eye on ball.
      Hashim Khan

      Comment


      • #4
        First off, you need to know if YOUR motor is wired with the brush (armature) wires in parallel or in series with the other two (field) wires. The Ridgid wiring diagram is for a series connected motor. If your motor wants the two pairs of wires connected to power in parallel, it can be done, but with a different wiring scheme.

        Also note that the Ridgid wiring diagram calls for a foot switch, which turns the motor on and off. The switch you bought is ONLY for selecting direction! You'll need a second switch for power, otherwise the motor will run all the time. Your original switch can probably be used.

        That said, you can easily wire your motor per the diagram, if you note the following:

        Per the diagram, place the on/off switch on the BLACK (HOT) side of the 115 volt line.

        The WHITE (NEUTRAL) side of the 115 volt line goes directly to the "white" (see below) motor lead. Ignore the "Suppressor" wiring, as it's only for 220 volts. In other words, the white lead does not connect with the reversing switch at all.

        The two motor leads that are tagged with yellow can be wired as if they were the white and red leads on the Ridgid. They should go to the two center terminals on the switch, either one to either terminal.

        The other two leads are equivalent to the blue and yellow leads on the Ridgid. They should connect to the the two spade lugs that are located on the "top" of the switch in your picture, one per jumper, either one to either terminal

        Once you have it all wired, power up and check that the motor's direction agrees with the markings on the switch. If it's backwards, disconnect power and swap the positions of the two "blue/yellow" leads.

        This should get you going for a series wound motor. If your motor wants to be wired parallel, let me know, and I'll tell you how to wire that.

        - John Herrmann

        Comment


        • #5
          Pretty doubtful it would be parallel wired. Every universal motor I remember seeing has been series wired, and there is a good reason for it.

          The universal motor has to run on AC, and so cannot have much "inductance", which opposes the flow of AC in proportion to its inductance. A field winding capable of withstanding voltage across it would pretty much HAVE to have a large inductance, and would not work, because current through it could not effectively follow the AC voltage. Same for the armature, which would then also have to withstand full mains voltage.
          1601

          Keep eye on ball.
          Hashim Khan

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks much for the help guys and John Herrmann welcome!

            Originally posted by hman View Post
            First off, you need to know if YOUR motor is wired with the brush (armature) wires in parallel or in series with the other two (field) wires. The Ridgid wiring diagram is for a series connected motor. If your motor wants the two pairs of wires connected to power in parallel, it can be done, but with a different wiring scheme.

            Also note that the Ridgid wiring diagram calls for a foot switch, which turns the motor on and off. The switch you bought is ONLY for selecting direction! You'll need a second switch for power, otherwise the motor will run all the time. Your original switch can probably be used.
            I should have said I am using a foot switch.

            Originally posted by hman View Post
            That said, you can easily wire your motor per the diagram, if you note the following:

            Per the diagram, place the on/off switch on the BLACK (HOT) side of the 115 volt line.

            The WHITE (NEUTRAL) side of the 115 volt line goes directly to the "white" (see below) motor lead. Ignore the "Suppressor" wiring, as it's only for 220 volts. In other words, the white lead does not connect with the reversing switch at all.

            The two motor leads that are tagged with yellow can be wired as if they were the white and red leads on the Ridgid. They should go to the two center terminals on the switch, either one to either terminal.

            The other two leads are equivalent to the blue and yellow leads on the Ridgid. They should connect to the the two spade lugs that are located on the "top" of the switch in your picture, one per jumper, either one to either terminal

            - John Herrmann
            This is where I get confused. If the white neutral coming in gets connected directly to a motor lead then that leaves 3 wires from the motor to the switch. I then can not have a wire on each side of the of the center terminals (white/red) and a wire on each of the top terminals blue/yellow unless one wire is going to 2 places.
            The diagram shows the hot from foot switch going to the center switch terminal. If the brush wires (white/red) go on each side of the switch where does the hot now land?

            Last edited by Ridgerunner; 02-28-2015, 03:29 PM. Reason: corrected diagram as Barrington pointed out

            Comment


            • #7
              You appear to have redrawn the diagram with the suppressor shorted out rather than simply removed

              Example series connection:-

              Line-----blue <<field>> yellow-----red <<brushes>>white-----Neutral

              Reverse direction:-

              Line-----yellow <<field>> blue-----red <<brushes>>white-----Neutral


              The reverse switch simply swaps blue from Line to red, and yellow from red to Line.

              Cheers

              .

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Barrington View Post
                You appear to have redrawn the diagram with the suppressor shorted out rather than simply removed
                Thanks for pointing that out. That will teach me from trying to eliminate confusion lol.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ridgerunner View Post
                  Thanks much for the help guys and John Herrmann welcome!
                  Thanks!

                  Originally posted by Ridgerunner View Post
                  I should have said I am using a foot switch.
                  OK! That, plus the fact (which I'd forgotten) that universal motors are all series wound, makes you golden!


                  Originally posted by Ridgerunner View Post
                  This is where I get confused. If the white neutral coming in gets connected directly to a motor lead then that leaves 3 wires from the motor to the switch. I then can not have a wire on each side of the of the center terminals (white/red) and a wire on each of the top terminals blue/yellow unless one wire is going to 2 places.
                  The diagram shows the hot from foot switch going to the center switch terminal. If the brush wires (white/red) go on each side of the switch where does the hot now land?


                  OMG! I just figured out where your confusion comes from. If you look at the wiring schematic, you see that the black wire from the plug is the one that goes to the foot switch. The wiring diagram shows the white wire from the plug going to the switch! I hardly looked at the diagram when I posted, as schematics are easier for me to understand. And switching the hot (black) lead as soon as possible is generally best practice for 110 (115, 120, whatever).

                  In any case, you are correct that only three of the motor leads go to the directional switch. The fourth motor lead goes to the neutral side of the plug lead. The fourth terminal on the directional switch goes to the output of the foot switch.

                  You should also note that "white = neutral" is not universal!!! It's generally true (except for ISO/DIN color coding) for the wires coming directly out of the plug. But any time you run a cord to a remote switch, and it's a standard cord with black and white wires, you're going to end up with an oddball at one end or the other. If you want, you can label the neutral and hot (and maybe "switched hot") wires with tape flags.

                  Until I retired, I was designing and building assembly line equipment at HP. Long time ago, we tried to follow color codes for wires, but (as in the case above), it can lead to contradictions. Modern practice is to LABEL all the wires, regardless of color. The only remnants of the color code that remained was that green or green/yellow was ground, blue indicated wiring that carried 110 volts or higher (regardless of hot/neutral. switched/unswitched, etc.) , and another color (IIRC, white) indicated low (safe) voltages.

                  It would probably be a good idea for you to label all your wires anyway, so that if you have to service the equipment years from now, you can figger out what's going on. And do feel free to ask if there's anything else you're confused about!

                  - John Herrmann

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hman View Post
                    If you look at the wiring schematic, you see that the black wire from the plug is the one that goes to the foot switch. The wiring diagram shows the white wire from the plug going to the switch!
                    No, it doesn't !!

                    Cheers

                    .
                    Last edited by Barrington; 02-28-2015, 04:56 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hman View Post

                      You should also note that "white = neutral" is not universal!!! It's generally true (except for ISO/DIN color coding) for the wires coming directly out of the plug. But any time you run a cord to a remote switch, and it's a standard cord with black and white wires, you're going to end up with an oddball at one end or the other. If you want, you can label the neutral and hot (and maybe "switched hot") wires with tape flags.

                      Until I retired, I was designing and building assembly line equipment at HP. Long time ago, we tried to follow color codes for wires, but (as in the case above), it can lead to contradictions. Modern practice is to LABEL all the wires, regardless of color. The only remnants of the color code that remained was that green or green/yellow was ground, blue indicated wiring that carried 110 volts or higher (regardless of hot/neutral. switched/unswitched, etc.) ,
                      NFPA79 spells out colour code for Industrial Machinery, A recent change is for a conductor that may be live as it originates from a different system or enclosure.
                      Previously this was yellow for N.A. now it conforms to EC standard, i.e. Orange.
                      To my knowledge blue has always indicated DC for control circuitry, per NFPA standards.
                      Max.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Got it! Many thanks to all for your time and sharing your knowledge in responding. Here is a picture of what finally worked. It is always nice to get an old piece of machinery working again. Now to clean it up and label everything to make it easier for the next person.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Barrington View Post
                          No, it doesn't !!

                          Cheers

                          AAAACK! The color labels are distant from the wires and the lead lines. Sorry, mis-read it.

                          - John Herrmann

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I believe this is the way you want to wire it.



                            Notice that the jumpers that you have in the photo of the reversing switch are still there, in the same positions. There is no way to predict which direction the motor will run in the two switch positions. If it goes forward when you want reverse, just reverse the two wires you have labeled with yellow tape.
                            Last edited by Paul Alciatore; 03-01-2015, 03:59 AM.
                            Paul A.

                            Make it fit.
                            You can't win and there is a penalty for trying!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just for info - the suppressor would have been across the brushes rather than the field, so in the original diagrams it was the field that was was being swapped.

                              Swapping the brushes instead is of course perfectly fine, but any suppressor would still be fitted across the brushes (with the yellow tape), not the field as above.

                              Cheers

                              .

                              Comment

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