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Industrial battery

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  • Industrial battery

    Theres talk of a new battery that will soon be unveiled. Does anyone know anything about it?So-posed to be a game changer, but what will charge it.?
    This is from Tesla

  • #2
    Are you thinking of this:

    Solar panels charge the batteries. $3,500 for the 10KWh pack, but this is battery only, trade price - then you get installation costs and the solar panels - looks expensive right now, but the price should come down in time I suppose.

    All of the gear, no idea...


    • #3
      Thats the one .We suffer from power outages here in S Africa and I heard there was something new on the market,just didnt realize I would have to sell my house to afford it.


      • #4
        First thing I found of interest yesterday, when it was announced, was immediately the various news programs are carrying in-depth stories about how our (they did not make it clear if it was "our" as in Canada generally, Ontario specifically or North America, or world wide) current hydro system was not capable of having all of these various power generating sources linked to it. Sure smacks of the auto industry trying to quash very high mileage vehicles.

        Secondly, the link, above that Ian provided, gives some numbers that make me wonder. They show a 7kWh "daily cycle" and using their own statistics, a refrigerator uses 4.8 kWH per day and a clothes dryer uses 3.3kWh per use, so that means running a fridge and using the dryer once a day is already more than the storage of the the daily cycle Powerwall without using or having anything else on. IF that math is correct the implications are you will need several of these (limit is 9) at $3000 a pop. To me, very, very tough sell. Its great that they are trying but IMO the cost would need to be reduce by a power of 10 before I could see the masses rushing out to get some.


        • #5
          It's just a battery... a warmed-over electric car battery.

          The big deal is NOT so much distributed individual batteries, each for a tiny "usage pocket"... The real deal is "utility scale" batteries, capable of storing gWh, not kWh.

          Yes, the grid is TOTALLY INCAPABLE of dealing with sources such as wind power, and they are TOTALLY INCOMPATIBLE with the grid, needs-wise.

          The "connector" here is storage.

          problem #1: Wind power is available when it is available, and how it is available, you have no control whatever over it, aside from choosing the site to put up your turbines. When it is available, you may not need it, and when you need it it may not be available. The same is true of solar in areas prone to clouds.

          Problem #2: Wind power is variable, but electric load is fairly constant over any short time. Wind *may* drop 20% in a few seconds, and then something has to pick up for the difference. No electric grid will be stable with variations of that percentage, even locally, it may shut down on overload. There exists no source that has good pick-up capability for variations on the order of seconds.

          Why it works now: Because the percentage of wind generation is small, and the total variability is not excessive, yet. And because in general, over a large wind farm, the output tends to be pretty constant, some turbines produce less, some more.

          To combat this issue, there are new connection regulations proposed to limit the rate of change of power output from any source over a certain size. This is given as a percentage change in output over some time period. If put through, the proposal could shut down new large wind and solar power installations, since there is no way to guarantee that rate of change when you do not control the ultimate source.

          Obviously, the solution is a battery or other storage means which can store at minimum, energy equal to several minutes of full output of the installation, so that the output can be maintained long enough to satisfy the rate of change regulations. To go with that, large inverters are required to produce AC from the stored energy

          Pumped storage currently provides some of this sort of backup, but is still fairly slow to start and stop, because you will have an immense and very destructive "water hammer" if the flow is changed too fast. It is still far faster than starting a steam plant, and even faster than starting up a gas turbine plant. It is probably considerably less efficient than a good battery plus inverter.

          An inverter can be brought on-line in a few seconds. Startup time is "no seconds" if it is the normal output means, with the source charging the battery, and the inverter providing output all the time. Inverter efficiency is very good, 97% or so for even tiny VFD size inverters

          However, the need is for batteries as much as 10,000 x bigger than the tesla units.
          CNC machines only go through the motions.

          Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
          Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
          Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
          I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
          Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.


          • #6
            Plunger if you want a foolproof system that wont break the bank PM me. I've done several remote cabins that you ccan't tell your off the grid & not expensive either.


            • #7
              I heard or read something not long ago about smaller batteries (aaa, aa, c, d, etc) switching over to an aluminum based conductor/core. Supposed to be much safer for the environment, cheaper, and something else better.


              • #8
                The uk government are running a trial with them at present, the good bit is they fitted them for free if you signed up, no shortage of takers for the 10 kW I think set up.
                I suppose it would allow a lot of people to go off grid, provided your usage was not including a dirty great workshop including welding, most folk over here can easily cope with the smaller capacity, you don't need that much power to run the average uk house, they are just about the smallest in the world
                I don't know if the set ups they are fitting are tesla batteries or just ordinary ones.


                • #9
                  J Tiers, I disagree with your naysaying of wind as an electricity generator.


                  I agree that wind may not be the best available solution but not for the reasons you give.
                  Last edited by The Artful Bodger; 05-02-2015, 06:13 PM.


                  • #10
                    Why do wind generators have to be stood so far apart? Why can't they stand them in offset ranks closer together to get a higher density in the area and be less imposing on the landscape?
                    Peter - novice home machinist, modern motorcycle enthusiast.

                    Denford Viceroy 280 Synchro (11 x 24)
                    Herbert 0V adapted to R8 by 'Sir John'.
                    Monarch 10EE 1942


                    • #11
                      Cause when they implode they dont create a domino effect in destruction


                      • #12
                        Each wind generator actually needs the space, because they actually extract energy from a cylinder of air that extends way back downwind of them. It seems a bit strange, but it's true.

                        As for naysaying, Who is saying "nay"? Not me. It's just fine as an adjunct source, but clearly is not ready to be the ONLY source, of power. It's a rare site that is a year around high power site, and many of those sites are 'taken" already.

                        I think SMALL SCALE wind power is a bad joke on most of the poor saps that buy a wind generator expecting wonderful savings. they will never see those, in most cases, just because they are in a lousy wind area. If you have half the wind speed, you get 1/8 the power, and that's where most generators are.... your 10kW generator gives you a tad over a single kilowatt much of the time. Solar is far more reliable.

                        But utility scale wind is much more than just a proven technology.... it can pay nicely. But that's at the 50Mw and above wind farm size.

                        However, the fact remains that there MUST be storage to get proper usage out of wind power. If you have a megawatt available, but can only use 250kw, you are wasting possible power. If you could store it, then you could use it later, when you DID need it. Solar is the same way.

                        And the issues with variability are also important. As mentioned above.

                        Both wind and solar are very much good sources.... you just need to be able to use the power when it is available. Since that isn't the case, you MUST have storage, or you are not getting your money's worth.

                        But, the tesla battery is not the right item. It's cute, but only a fraction of what is ideal for just one house.
                        CNC machines only go through the motions.

                        Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
                        Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
                        Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
                        I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
                        Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.


                        • #13
                          If the generator system has variable output and the needs are also variable storage may be the answer, but not necessarily the only answer.

                          Generator facilities that can be brought online to cover periods of high demand or low output from primary systems is one solution but the systems must be able to be brought online quickly which precludes thermal (coal,oil, nookular or gas. Hydro plants can be brought up quicker than thermal plants but not really instantly.

                          The most practical solution for most countries is insurance in the form of distributed generation facilities and a distribution grid that can handle whatever the requirements predicted with a bit more to spare.

                          For a small scale installation, say a farm, resort hotel etc the answer may be to install excess generation capacity using less economical systems, diesel alternators for example and to arrange the load to incorporate inherent storage. If you are operating an institution with no grid supply and heating is a major part of your energy requirements then keep plenty of hot water on hand, thats what I mean by a load that incorporates storage.

                          Here is one place getting serious with solar power..


                          • #14
                            Isn't one of the main issues with wind and solar in the US the limited interconnectivity of the regional power grids? I would have thought that better interconnects, especially from the more remote but constant sun/ wind areas, would go a long way towards smoothing out input vs. demand.

                            As an interesting example of the law of unintended consequences, one of the major effects of the Energiwende (sp?) in Germany has been to boost the amount of coal being burned. As subsidised prices of renewables became competitive with gas, fewer gas powered stations were kept in use (either for peak or base loading) and more coal fired stations used instead due to the cheapness of coal. Another example is the huge amount of wood chips/ pellets being shipped from the US to the UK to keep the biomass fired power stations running as local sources can keep up.


                            • #15
                              Here is another county that has gone totally solar power..