Piston rings leaking on air compressor

[A.K. Boomer]

Sorry but +1 with what Willy stated, it's total hackery at its very best,,,

flow patterns alone dictate only certain sections will get heavily laden with the "crap" whilst others skate almost totally free...

it's junk science and is hillbilly tech. brought to you by people who do not know how stuff works...

hardly leaving nice crosshatch but instead the greatly unwanted linear grooves...

[J Tiers]

I don't like uncontrolled abrasives of any sort either....

BUT... that said.... it may be "hackery", but it seems it is (or presumably "was") manufacturer-approved and manufacturer-supported hackery.

At that point it ceases to be total hackery, and becomes an approved process.

Wouldn't be the first one that was goofy or that I didn't like. But if the OEM likes it well enough to support it, then it's hard to claim it is damaging and stupid. One would hope that the OEM was not one of those who "do not know how stuff works"...........

[Willy]

Oh sure I've heard of the Bon Ami magic pixy dust treatments for deglazing cylinder walls. But Like AK said this is hillbilly tech at it's finest. Rather than properly addressing a mechanical deficiency properly, we'll just take a short cut and dust the engine a bit, what could go wrong.


Not abrasive? The abrasive properties is what deglazes the cylinder liner, cleans the sink and the pots and pans.
What process removes these abrasives from the ring pac and piston surface? A quick oli and filter change, dream on, most of it will linger on for many hours of fun.


Show me Caterpiller's or any other power train component OEM's current and more enlightened stance on this archaic technique.

http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/Gas-Engines/Smokstak-January-2003.aspx

Please go easy with the Bon Ami stuff, guys. While this used to be an accepted way of quickly seating in an engine, it is also a very quick way to destroy an engine and should only be used as a last resort. In older engines with low piston speeds it was marginally workable. The abrasives were typically used to resolve compression issues, not oil consumption issues. It sounds like you have plenty of compression - oil wiping is the prevailing issue. Remember that abrasives counteract the lubricants in the engine. If you have never done the Bon Ami thing, try it first on an engine you don't care about. - Harvey

[TGTool]

Maybe like kinky sex - don't knock it til you've tried it, Boomer.

[macona]

Total Seal will supply you rings for just about any diameter piston. They are for engines, but should work fine.

http://015ef8d.netsolhost.com/SearchByBore.aspx

[DS_park]

There are two kinds of bomami, a:feldspar and soap b: limestone, feldspar, Sufficant, Soda ash, and Baking soda.

We use both of them for cleaning at the house.....

Hey, you were given the green light to go get a new compressor. You did go get one before spending time exploring one of the cylinder overhaul in a can subjects right?

[Rosco-P]

Sorry but +1 with what Willy stated, it's total hackery at its very best,,,

it's junk science and is hillbilly tech. brought to you by people who do not know how stuff works...

hardly leaving nice crosshatch but instead the greatly unwanted linear grooves...

And how do you categorize junking the compressor because of worn or stuck rings? Perhaps even more ridiculous, the idea that you'll make new rings and pistons from cast iron?

[A.K. Boomer]

I don't like uncontrolled abrasives of any sort either....

BUT... that said.... it may be "hackery", but it seems it is (or presumably "was") manufacturer-approved and manufacturer-supported hackery.

At that point it ceases to be total hackery, and becomes an approved process.

Wouldn't be the first one that was goofy or that I didn't like. But if the OEM likes it well enough to support it, then it's hard to claim it is damaging and stupid. One would hope that the OEM was not one of those who "do not know how stuff works"...........

Again little too much faith in the manufacturer, I can give you countless examples that they are just like everyone else - subject to errors, hey - their only human right?

and many times due to rules and regs and misguided "good intentions" and "board meetings" and large groups having a little too much faith in one member that does not know his arss from his elbow their errors can actually be drastically compounded. and I can give you countless examples of that too...

so - fact is - is it's crap, and there's another guys opinion on here that I value almost as much as my own and he's saying the same thing and expanding on reasons "why"

what does it take to pop the top on an air compressor? would much rather see someone do that - and give a quick top hone with mild stones even with the pistons still in... then wipe down the bores thoroughly...

it's crap - it's junk, it should never even be considered --- it should actually be laughed at like im doing right now...

[A.K. Boomer]

And how do you categorize junking the compressor because of worn or stuck rings?

You either junk it or fix it... you don't try to fix it by junking it...

[wierdscience]

so - fact is - is it's crap, and there's another guys opinion on here that I value almost as much as my own and he's saying the same thing and expanding on reasons "why"

what does it take to pop the top on an air compressor? would much rather see someone do that - and give a quick top hone with mild stones even with the pistons still in... then wipe down the bores thoroughly...

I find this amusing,there are two types of abrasives,persistent and degrading.Bonami is a degrading abrasive that breaks down very quickly and eventually goes inert.So you guys are freaking out about a very mild abrasive that breaks down rapidly and eventually degrades to a particle size so small that it behaves more like a lubricant and no longer abrades anything.

But on the flip side,no mechanic thinks twice about honing cylinders with stones made from persistent abrasives that are long acting and tend to embed in the surfaces they cut,makes perfect sense

There are in fact degrading abrasive lapping compounds that are added to the lubricating oil in gearboxes,bearing journals and other applications where surfaces need to be polished in motion to eliminate unwanted friction and running noise.

http://www.ws2coating.com/timesaverlappingcompounds.aspx

[A.K. Boomer]

And I find that amusing --- just about every auto-engine and motorcycle engine manufacturer finishes the bores with honing stones and then the engines run a quarter to a half million miles with this terrible abrasive left in them,,,

you have to get the crosshatch in there somehow - and news flash --- Bonami ain't gonna do it...

if anything there's area where it will dry run the bore from the precious oil film and cause dry galling,,, and guess what?

the gallings not going to be in a very welcoming direction for proper sealing and in fact will be in the very worst path possible...

the meshing of gears and the sealing of bores and I might add creating oil retention cross-hatch are two totally different things... really not rocket science...

[wierdscience]

And I find that amusing --- just about every auto-engine and motorcycle engine manufacturer finishes the bores with honing stones and then the engines run a quarter to a half million miles with this terrible abrasive left in them,,,

And you're still worried about a mild abrasive that degrades in minutes?

if anything there's area where it will dry run the bore from the precious oil film and cause dry galling,,, and guess what?

the gallings not going to be in a very welcoming direction for proper sealing and in fact will be in the very worst path possible...

the meshing of gears and the sealing of bores and I might add creating oil retention cross-hatch are two totally different things... really not rocket science...

Glazing is caused when a layer of oxidized oil coats the cylinder wall and defeats the cross hatch.The Bonami treatment does not produce a crosshatch,how could it,but what it does do is remove the glaze.

In any rate Cat seemed confident enough to recommend the procedure,is it possible that even on a freshly rebuilt engine with a proper crosshatch that sometimes during break in an oxidized film would be formed preventing proper seating?I think absolutely it could especially back in the day when oil quality varied widely.

[Glug]

And I find that amusing --- just about every auto-engine and motorcycle engine manufacturer finishes the bores with honing stones and then the engines run a quarter to a half million miles with this terrible abrasive left in them,,,

What do you mean, the abrasive is left in them? When I worked at one of the big three, cleaning out any residual was a requirement. They used special brushes, and a process I don't know the details of. I was always told that proper cleaning of honed cylinders was a critical step when I was assembling racing engines.

The suggestion to check the compressor crankcase vent was interesting. Wouldn't it be a hoot if that was it? I think it's well worth going in and looking at the rings and bores, if it comes to that. You could get some 'file to fit' rings.

When was the last time the oil was changed?

[A.K. Boomer]

What do you mean, the abrasive is left in them? When I worked at one of the big three, cleaning out any residual was a requirement. They used special brushes, and a process I don't know the details of. I was always told that proper cleaning of honed cylinders was a critical step when I was assembling racing engines.

I/we always use a multi-step process too - and it is very important - and does get the lions share out no doubt,
but the process of honing in itself "seals" in grit as it folds metal in around itself, you can never get it all out not matter what. but get by far the majority and all is good

The suggestion to check the compressor crankcase vent was interesting. Wouldn't it be a hoot if that was it?

yes very good suggestion

I think it's well worth going in and looking at the rings and bores, if it comes to that. You could get some 'file to fit' rings.

totally agree.

When was the last time the oil was changed?

[Willy]

The Bon Ami treatment was an old attempt at reviving an engine whose fate was already sealed. I believe the process was first used during the 30's and 40s when resources were scarce and metallurgy as well as lubricants were primitive compared to the advanced processes and materials we know today. At best it added a couple of hundred hours of life to an engine that needed to be rebuilt anyway. In other words you've got nothing to loose.

New diamond hones and plateau honing techniques in addition to improvements in metallurgy and lubricants are light years ahead of what was done in the 70's never mind the 30's.

Show me one OEM that recommends the "break in powder" process as an accepted means of restoring an engine back into service, even as a temporary fix.

I'm not sure if everyone is familiar with the Lubrizol Corp. but it is probably the biggest single supplier of lubricant additives to the major oil suppliers.
A partial list below of just some of their products.

Heck maybe I'll give em' a call with my suggestion for Bon Ami, who knows perhaps I'll get me a new job!

Heavy-duty engine oils Passenger car engine oils Marine engine oils Stationary gas engine oils Motorcycle engine oils Power tool engine oils Recreational equipment engine oils	Automatic gear oils Transmission fluids Off-highway applications	Hydraulic fluids Industrial gear oils Grease Metalworking fluids Compressor lubricants Turbine and circulating oils Emulsion explosives	Gasoline Diesel fuel Home heating oil Industrial fuel Marine fuel