Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

help with powering my new lathe please

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • help with powering my new lathe please

    Guys- I need some help powering my new lathe.
    I thought that it had a 3hp drive motor, but it is 5hp. That’s all well and good until I look into the options for powering it. Currently, its set up for 3 phase 220 input. It uses a Yaskawa Model CIMR-V&AT23P7 VFD (part of the factory manufacture) to control the speed. There are no moving sheave’s like most HLVH’s.
    So my dilemma is , one I really don’t need 5hp on this lathe. According to Victor it was an option but most came with either 1.5 or 3hp 3 phase motors. The larger motor makes issues (more cost) with the options to power.
    According to Yaskawa the VFD that the machine has will not take single phase in (although others have said it is capable). I could use a RPC but cost jumps appreciably because of the 5 HP motor.
    I’m wondering if I could downsize the motor and use the same VFD and use a RPC (checked into the cost, about $900.00 for the RPC and another Item (forget the name) that keeps the voltage within a specific range)
    Or, downsize the motor and get a VFD that will accept 220v single phase in (to run the new 3 phase motor)
    The lathe currently has a remote variable speed with a digital tach that I would like to keep its full function.
    Most importantly, electrical matters are not my strong hand. So when I’m dealing with people to ask these questions, I’m not sure I’m even asking the right questions and fully understanding the provided answers.
    Help! Thanks, Sid

  • #2
    Hi Sid, I just noticed your location, my family owns a cottage on Sunset Cove, on East Lake rd, been in the family since the 1950's, wish I knew a decade ago you live up there! As far as powering it, the cheapest would be a RPC, but I am not sure the VFD will like the input from a RPC. There is a "Phase Perfect"? you could get, or a different VFD all together that will power a 5 hp motor from 220 single phase. I have one on my bridgeport, love it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RB211 View Post
      Hi Sid, I just noticed your location, my family owns a cottage on Sunset Cove, on East Lake rd, been in the family since the 1950's, wish I knew a decade ago you live up there! As far as powering it, the cheapest would be a RPC, but I am not sure the VFD will like the input from a RPC. There is a "Phase Perfect"? you could get, or a different VFD all together that will power a 5 hp motor from 220 single phase. I have one on my bridgeport, love it.
      Is that on the east or west side of the lake? I'm on Eibert.

      Sid

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't understand your insistence on 3 HP vs 5. Are you paying extra? There's little difference in cost of operation and the lathe will operate the same regardless of the motor except, obviously, for stock removal. The hazard is no greater nor will you have greater difficulty with operation or tooling.

        Keep your new lathe as-is for now. Run it on single phase and see how it goes. The 5 HP motor won't draw more than a 3 HP motor unless you take more than 3 HP cuts. HP is like corn flakes: the size of the box (motor HP) doesn't matter. You take what you want in a bowl (DOC, feed, FPM) and leave the rest in the box (un-needed motor capacity).

        I seriously doubt you'll need an RPC. The excess capacity of the 5 HP motor/VFD will swamp the need for for it. In fact, if I was to spec a three phase input VFD to run from single phase to power a 3 HP motor to drive a continuous load (like a pump or conveyor) it would be a 5 HP. Perfect de-rating.

        I'm very skeptical of customer service people who answer "no" to questions most others have found to be "yes". It's more likely to be a knee jerk, CYA answer unsupported by real world experience.

        I strongly suggest you try your new lathe on single phase. Nothing BAD will happen if you do. Life aint Hollywood where the slightest technical slip-up results in blazing catastrophe.

        If the VFD doesn't like single phase, it will give you a message on the LCD or fault under load. Chances are there's a parameter you can tweak to clear the fault so it works properly under single phase like adjusting the accel and decel to somewhat longer times.
        Last edited by Forrest Addy; 11-30-2015, 04:16 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Forrest Addy View Post
          I don't understand your insistence on 3 HP vs 5. There's little difference in cost of operation and the lathe will operate the same regardless of the motor except, obviously, for stock removal. The hazard is no greater nor will you have greater difficulty with operation or tooling.

          I suggest you keep your new lathe as-is for now. Run it on single phase and see how it goes. The 5 HP motor won't draw more than a 3 HP motor unless you take more than 3 HP cuts. Motors of adjacent HP when run from a VFD under partial load results in a small percent difference in cost of operation. I seriously doubt you'll need an RPC. The excess capacity of the 5 HP motor/VFD will swamp the need for for it. In fact, if I was to spec a three phase input VFD to run from single phase to power a 3 HP motor to drive a continuous load like a pump, it would be a 5 HP. Perfect de-rating.

          I'm very skeptical of customer service people who answer "no" to questions most other have found to be "yes". It's more likely to be a knee jerk, CYA answer unsupported by real world experience.

          So try your new lathe on single phase. Life aint Hollywood where the slightest technical slip-up causes the airplane to dive for the ground, sends the stage coach over the cliff, sinks the ship, crashes the train, or explodes the whole town in a ball of fire.

          If the VFD doesn't like single phase, it will give you a message on the LCD or fault under load. Chances are there's a parameter you can tweak to clear the fault so it works properly under single phase like adjusting the accel and decel to somewhat longer times.
          Forrest- Thanks for your input. I was kind of thinking the same thing about the 3 VS 5 thing. I equate it to an IC engine. it may be capable of 500 hp but if I'm not pulling a load (real heavy cut) and just cruising down the thruway on flat ground @ 55, Im only using 150 HP (maybe not a dirrect correlation, but you get the point).
          I guess my fear is that of damaging the existing VFD. Again, I have no familiarity with these, so I'm taking it slow.

          Sid

          Comment


          • #6
            I respectfully agree, & I mis read your post. Carry on!
            Last edited by flylo; 11-30-2015, 04:17 PM.
            "Let me recommend the best medicine in the
            world: a long journey, at a mild season, through a pleasant
            country, in easy stages."
            ~ James Madison

            Comment


            • #7
              At the lower power, the VFD may be fine. I don't know exactly why Yaskawa say it will not operate from 1 phase. I can't find a manual in english for it.

              Typically, one can operate at 50% power or thereabouts, but some units have phase loss detectors. Those may or may not be responding to phase as well as voltage. And there may or may not be a good reason why they don't want it used on single phase.

              It could be that the parts inside are not suitable to work with the higher inrush and higher ripple currents of single phase, in which case you may damage the thing. But that will be power dependent.

              My slightly educated guess is that you can operate up to at least 1/3 of max load if you can make the VFD accept single phase, which may be as simple as jumpering the line 2 and line 3 inputs. 5 HP is a lot of power, and coming from a smaller machine (as I think you did) you are unlikely to go that high any time soon.
              1601

              Keep eye on ball.
              Hashim Khan

              Comment


              • #8
                I found what appears to be a user manual at https://www.yaskawa.com/pycprd/looku...kRMatQ7CsDXylY

                It's the P7 drive user manual. The 23P7 appears to be the one you have... 230V 5HP.

                Dan
                At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and extra parts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                  At the lower power, the VFD may be fine. I don't know exactly why Yaskawa say it will not operate from 1 phase. I can't find a manual in english for it.

                  Typically, one can operate at 50% power or thereabouts, but some units have phase loss detectors. Those may or may not be responding to phase as well as voltage. And there may or may not be a good reason why they don't want it used on single phase.

                  It could be that the parts inside are not suitable to work with the higher inrush and higher ripple currents of single phase, in which case you may damage the thing. But that will be power dependent.

                  My slightly educated guess is that you can operate up to at least 1/3 of max load if you can make the VFD accept single phase, which may be as simple as jumpering the line 2 and line 3 inputs. 5 HP is a lot of power, and coming from a smaller machine (as I think you did) you are unlikely to go that high any time soon.
                  Actually this machine is smaller as far as swing but I'm certain more precise. I'm all for experimenting. I just have to move out the old lathe. Which BTW I did sell on Sunday to the first guy that came to look at it. Craig's list. Very close to asking price. It leaves on Saturday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sid pileski View Post
                    Actually this machine is smaller as far as swing but I'm certain more precise. I'm all for experimenting. ...
                    Well, smaller in these terms refers to power level, and not so much to size (they can go together, of course).

                    It comes down to "don't push it too far".

                    If it really will have an issue, I would expect it will also most likely trip off with undervoltage faults, or possibly with excess ripple current/ripple voltage faults, which will warn you that you are overdoing it. It may be that being built-in, it may not have the same reporting system as if it were a sold-by-itself unit. which may mean you don't get as much information.

                    Is it mentioned in the manual with any significant information given?

                    Long term, there may be other things which can be done, if it seems as though it will be a problem.
                    1601

                    Keep eye on ball.
                    Hashim Khan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sid, East side of the lake

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That's the side I'm on too. Just past 5 mi point

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Is replacing the VFD with a larger single phase input unit an option?

                          http://dealerselectric.com/MA7200-2007-N4.asp
                          I just need one more tool,just one!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sid pileski View Post
                            That's the side I'm on too. Just past 5 mi point
                            You realize we are next door neighbors? I'm a few lots away from 5 mi point!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                              You realize we are next door neighbors? I'm a few lots away from 5 mi point!
                              When are you up this way? summers?

                              Anyway, to all that helped out, as soon as I can get the new lathe in place, I'm going to wire it up to 220v 1ph.
                              I've contacted a local place here in NY (Auburn Armature). One of the guys there was vey helpfull.
                              He offered a replacement VFD, but also thought what I have should work, with possibly just a parameter setting
                              change.
                              That would be the best case senario. I hate to have to go back to the bank and explain why I need a new bla bla bla!

                              Sid

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X