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Anyone familiar with motors for Victor vertical mills?

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  • Anyone familiar with motors for Victor vertical mills?

    I posted in an earlier thread about VFDs that would work for a Victor VM-1 1/2 VA vertical mill that I'm now the caretaker of and had many good, informative responses and feel that I've located one that will do the trick. My next what if, back up question is what motor will work on this particular machine without mods in the event that the original motor is on its way out? I intend to order the Teco FM 50 drive and install it to see how things go but if the old motor is too far gone I could sure use some advice on where to find a replacement without spending an arm and a leg? Such answers to which make and model of motor will work and the source for them? The motor that is on the machine now is a Taiwanese Jih Shin Type SVEC-M, 2hp 220/440, 6 amp/3amp, CNS-C-4088. That's all of the information that I could see on the motor plate without breaking out the magnifying glass (old eyes). If there is anyone on the forum that has replaced one on a Victor or a similar type machine please let me know what your findings were. I'll run the motor that's on it as long as it works but my ultimate goal is to have a reliable machine that I don't have to fiddle around with all of the time to do a small project. Overall the machine is in excellent condition ( for my small home workshop) and I would like to keep it in service as long as possible. I can send photos of the motor setup and any other detailed pictures if needed. Thanks again for all of the help and advice.

  • #2
    Motors last a long time. If it does not smell and draws the right amperage, you may be worrying about nothing.
    Two horse, three phase motors are easy and inexpensive to come by. Unless it has an odd mounting system, just about any motor will bolt up.
    If you are located near a city with an industrial section, there is a electric motor shop to be found.

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    • #3
      Its unlikely you'll ever find a new replacement motor without spending an arm and a leg. Assuming this mill is a generic Bridgeport copy, a wild guess is around $500 plus for an off-shore motor because it is a special motor (face mount , long shaft, etc, etc). If a real Bridgeport USA-made motor would fit my guess would be $1000 plus.

      But, what makes you think the motor might be too far gone? Three phase motors are simple, no complicated starting mechanisms, unlike single phase motors. Your Taiwan motor probably is not the quality of an original B-port motor though.

      I believe if the motor is marginal, using the VFD continuously at low frequency (low rpm) the motor could be damaged because of the inability of the motor's internal fan to keep it cool. Maybe think about an external constant rpm fan.

      If it was me I wouldn't worry too much about the motor. Use the machine and deal with the situation if and when it happens. In terms of parts that won't last the motor is not the only thing to worry able, if you really want to worry (if the machine has a variable speed head that's something to worry about).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Badgerfarm View Post
        The motor that is on the machine now is a Taiwanese Jih Shin
        I have a 4hp Jih Shin motor on my Gate Pheobus ...Its been fine for the 10yrs I've owned the machine , 5 of those by inverter.

        http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/a...23143157_0.jpg

        I would bet that Jih Shin are used in lots of Tiawanese equipment.

        Rob

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        • #5
          What would suggest the motor is going to fail?

          As mentioned motors last a long time. At least if they are not mainland chinese motors, which even the chinese admit are often poorly made and unreliable. A taiwanese motor should be fine. They know how to make a good motor.
          1601

          Keep eye on ball.
          Hashim Khan

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          • #6
            Here's a generic tip for reading awkwardly placed nameplates. Stick your hand up there with a digital camera in it and take several pictures. On your computer you can crop, zoom etc. and it will be much easier to read.

            I agree with those who posted to use the motor you have. If you want it to last, tear it down and take the stator to a motor shop to be megged, dipped and baked. Or buy some Glyptal and seal the windings yourself. Take the rotor to a balancing shop and have it precision balanced to 3600 rpm. Then install new motor bearings taking care to grease the looser bearing and install the wavy washer where.it came from.

            metalmagpie

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            • #7
              Thanks for the words of advice. At one time we had a top notch motor shop in town but they are long since gone. There might not be anything wrong with the motor at all....I was just thinking "what ifs" which I tend to worry too much about things that don't matter much at the time. I'm going to order a Teco FM-50 drive and go with it and see what happens.

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              • #8
                Three phase motors run or they don't, there is no middle ground. As long as the insulation is good and the bearings are good they run. Moisture kills the insulation, but not on motors that run a lot. Old motors were not intended to withstand the voltage spikes generated by VFDs. A simple insulation test with a megger will give you very good idea of the insulation. if you get a low reading and dip and bake is warranted as it is way cheaper than a rewind. If you are really concerned, a reactor between the motor and VFD is good insurance for non VFD rated motors. In fact if you ever read the manual and see all the recommended extras you'd wonder how they ever work without all that stuff!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by garyhlucas View Post
                  ...Old motors were not intended to withstand the voltage spikes generated by VFDs. ...
                  They were not made with that in mind, no.

                  However, they were made well, with hand-placed insulation and a good deal of care in construction. Newer motors have machine-friendly, thinner plastic insulation, and may break down at considerably LOWER voltages than older motors, due to the coils getting too close when the "end turns| are hammered into place (yes, that's how motors are made).

                  So, it is quite possible that an older motor is as good or better than a newer one, assuming neither is "VFD rated".

                  The "VFD rating" generally covers more care with insulation, and better cooling at low speeds, with a maximum full-torque turn-down ratio. There is also generally bearing protection of some sort to prevent current through them.

                  The motors may also use wire with heavier insulation, but that insulation is not really relied on to support high voltages. Magnet wire is assumed to have a certain number of defects per metre of length.

                  Using a series inductor, or even a full sine filter, is an excellent way of reducing spike voltages, as well as the potential for bearing damage through spike-induced currents.

                  To further reduce spike currents, if you want, you can put in a contact to short the motor shaft to the case. An old motor brush will do nicely.
                  1601

                  Keep eye on ball.
                  Hashim Khan

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks for the input J Tiers. What part of Misery are you located? I'm just east of Springburg just south of Strafford and have plenty "O" sink holes out here too. Sink holes but no three phase available. I was hoping that somebody on the forum would chime in and say yes, I just bought motor number so and so to replace mine on my Victor mill. I would even consider going single phase if I could locate the right shaft size for the pulleys. I did that on a 3 phase raised panel door machine several years ago when you still get a motor rebuilt at Springfield Electric or Northside but those days are gone now I suppose.

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                    • #11
                      I'm just outside of St Louis.

                      There were a couple motor places fairly near, but one may be gone, and the other was reported to be unfriendly. I am told there is one way down in the city, north Broadway area, but have not been there. I don't find repairs economical in general.
                      1601

                      Keep eye on ball.
                      Hashim Khan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you're really concerned about transients etc... look at the Hitachi WJ200-xxx. That series has "micro-surge limiting" (their terminology) to pretty much eliminate this. It holds the output voltage to a max of 2x the input. As Jerry points out also - output inductors work well. These can be found new for $25-50 on Ebay.


                        I have yet to see any insulation burn or other issues on 240 vfd fed motors, some going back to the 1940s.
                        Last edited by lakeside53; 01-04-2016, 11:09 PM.

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                        • #13
                          It's sad to see the old motor shops disappearing even though they could be expensive at times. I have an old Atlas lathe that I would like to have the motor rewound for sentimental reasons as the lathe belonged to a friend that has passed away and it would be nice to have it all original. With the information that I have gotten from other members I'm reasonably comfortable with the VFD route on the Victor. I can continue my search for a backup motor over time and in the event one turns up I'll have a spare. I feel more comfortable with machinery when I have back up parts especially when the machine is pretty old.

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                          • #14
                            Run it till it pukes,then replace with a JM frame pump motor.

                            http://www.baldor.com/mvc/DownloadCenter/Files/BR456

                            Flange mount,lot's of shaft length and a simple conversion to fit a vertical mill.
                            I just need one more tool,just one!

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