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  • #31
    Yikes! He even has one of my ideas on there, such a good idea I had completely forgotten about it!

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    • #32
      I think it was a couple years back he actually contacted me and asked if he could use some tool of mine on his site. I said go ahead. Kinda sh!ty I think that he is not even asking now. That would just be common courtesy IMO.. JR

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 10KPete View Post
        I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me there is an issue here with intellectual property. I may be wrong but the material created is the property of the creator under various copyright laws, etc...

        Pete

        Intellectual property has about as much validity on the web as privacy does, it just doesn't exist anymore.
        The shortest distance between two points is a circle of infinite diameter.

        Bluewater Model Engineering Society at https://sites.google.com/site/bluewatermes/

        Southwestern Ontario. Canada

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Rosco-P View Post
          Does it make it okay that "O.W." scans, reprints and sells manuals, just because they are an advertiser here? I don't think so.
          Interesting, I wasnt aware anyone did that here. I've checked out a few of the advertiser's sites over the years out of curiosity but never noticed any manual dealers in the banners up top. Granted, I'm an old iron buying cheap SOB and rarely buy lower end tooling so most of the advertisers dont catch my attention too often.

          To answer your question, if theyre ripping others' material then no its not ok. I have no qualms against folks sharing literature from uber-rare defunct manufacturers, but knowingly ripping companies that are still employing folks is quite another matter.
          "I am, and ever will be, a white-socks, pocket-protector, nerdy engineer -- born under the second law of thermodynamics, steeped in the steam tables, in love with free-body diagrams, transformed by Laplace, and propelled by compressible flow."

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          • #35
            Now after all the grizzling and complaining thus far(or is there more to come?) that has not and it seems will not achieve anything of substance - why do it?

            Or do you just like complaining about things that you can't (won't?) do anything about - like getting off your butt - just for the sake of it?

            Me? - I just shrug my shoulders and get on with life as best I can - works too - mostly.

            http://www.devilles.co.uk/Word4.htm

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            • #36
              Originally posted by justanengineer View Post
              Interesting, I wasnt aware anyone did that here. I've checked out a few of the advertiser's sites over the years out of curiosity but never noticed any manual dealers in the banners up top. Granted, I'm an old iron buying cheap SOB and rarely buy lower end tooling so most of the advertisers dont catch my attention too often.

              To answer your question, if theyre ripping others' material then no its not ok. I have no qualms against folks sharing literature from uber-rare defunct manufacturers, but knowingly ripping companies that are still employing folks is quite another matter.
              OWWM, yes for old out of print manuals.

              The aforementioned O.W., I believe advertises in the print magazine and has occasionally posted here only as a shill for his own reprints.

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              • #37
                Hey guys - I'm the "Jon" guy who founded HomemadeTools.net.

                Thanks guys for not going forum lawyer crazy. In a nutshell the deal is that we post a reduced-size version of images that links to the original source and credits the original builder, so it acts as a 'reference' to the original post, and not an 'infringement'. A person also writes our tool descriptions manually. Someone already brought this up, but if you go to Google, Bing, Pinterest, or a bunch of other sites, you can find your pics there too (example link on Google Images of HSM pics: here). We're the only ones who fully credit every builder and website, and link directly to every tool post, 3 times per tool.

                Regarding OWWM, there's a demarcation point in copyright law for pre-1978 works, such that copyright status can more easily expire for a work, even if the original publishing entity is still intact. There are a lot of exclusions for this, but so much of OWWM's stuff is so old that its copyright status has expired.

                I know from forum experience that the best practice is to formally ask first. Most of our builders have no contact email, and we would have to register on a forum and PM them for permission, which seems sneaky and I think would anger a lot of forum members and admins.

                We instantly remove any tools that anyone doesn't want listed. This is really rare, but our most recent one was from a patent holder who believed his patented tool design was being posted in forums. Someone found his patent, made a tool based on it, posted the tool on the forum, we found the tool and linked to it, and the patent holder wanted everything deleted on all the sites it was posted!

                The plans stuff has been discussed here; it's an experimental and new method for builders to draft and sell plans for their builds. Since it involves commerce, it's probably not appropriate for me to discuss it on another forum, but it's 100% aboveboard and you can ask me any questions you want about it on our forum.
                Last edited by Metal Editors; 10-04-2016, 09:25 AM.

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                • #38
                  I like the site, Jon. I won Tool of the Week, a year or so ago, for a sliproll I built. I've sent the endplate plans to a couple dozen members since then, at their request, and no charge....glad to be able to help. I think the idea of helping members to sell their plans is great. I sell plans, on EBay, for the prospecting equipment I design and build...have for several years. I should probably take advantage of your site to do that, too.
                  Jim

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by GEP View Post
                    Home made tools the owner's name is Jon. I am not 100% positive but i think he is also the owner of the Atlas/Craftsman Yahoo forum. I can find out more info if you like.
                    As "Jon" gives his location in Colorado, and the A/C "Jon" (who I know slightly) is in St Louis, I doubt it.

                    I am not quite clear on how these folks are working it all, but it would appear they are indeed taking ideas from all over and selling plans, without the originator having anything to do with it. Possibly "legal", but perhaps not completely "ethical"..... Although I suppose there is a "value added", since if there were not plans originally, they have created and are selling a completely different original version of plans, and copyright etc is not applicable. In that case they have essentially taken only the idea.

                    But, as I say, I am not at all clear as to just what their deal is.
                    CNC machines only go through the motions

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by homemadetools View Post
                      I know from forum experience that the best practice is to formally ask first. Most of our builders have no contact email, and we would have to register on a forum and PM them for permission, which seems sneaky and I think would anger a lot of forum members and admins.
                      .
                      Thanks for intoducing yourself. I'm ok with my stuff there for the moment. I don't think contacting people beforehand would appear sneaky, however without a doubt seeing your work on commercial site without having been asked, definitely seems sneaky. That it would require effort to contact them is no reason not to do the right thing
                      Last edited by Mcgyver; 10-16-2016, 04:04 PM.
                      in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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                      • #41
                        Short answer - if you don't like the stuff you post here being "snaffled" - then don't post it here either as it can be down-loaded from pretty well anywhere by any body with access to the web - here included (obviously).

                        How many people here down-load your stuff without the courtesy of at least asking and I suspect not notifying anybody - author/s included - else.

                        But I would also guess that many who down-load stuff from here (or anywhere else on the web) don't even use it - they just store it away as "good stuff" (at the time).

                        Perhaps if you don't like your stuff being down-loaded that perhaps you should not up-load it in the first place.

                        But that's not going to happen - is it? - so just continue as you do now - or not at all.

                        It seems that plenty here have no qualms about logging onto and browsing the "Home Made Tools" site.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by oldtiffie View Post
                          How many people here down-load your stuff without the courtesy of at least asking and I suspect not notifying anybody - author/s included - else.
                          Everyone that sees it. It's inherent to how the web must operate. How else are we to view things without having downloaded them?

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                          • #43
                            Hm, just logged out, and went through the registration process (well, didn't go through the whole thing, just to get to the forum rules text):
                            Forum Rules

                            Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Complete Registration' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

                            Although the administrators and moderators of The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this site, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS, nor vBulletin Solutions, Inc. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

                            By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

                            The owners of The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason.

                            So, by default, every user owns the copyright to their post. While it would be understand other people can view/download the posts, republishing them on another site or in some other form, like a book or on cd, would be a copyright violation. And doing that can easily generate significant fines, as even republishing them on a "free" web site, but that also displays ads to users, counts as commercial distribution.

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                            • #44
                              Oldstiffie, you are a joke, albeit a bad one.

                              As to this Jon lets break his legs just as a reminder he should ask and make an effort. And also just for the fun of it. Where does he live? Anyone got an address?
                              Location: The Black Forest in Germany

                              How to become a millionaire: Start out with 10 million and take up machining as a hobby!

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                              • #45
                                OK - so some one has violated your personal and copyright rights.

                                So you know who did it - now what are you going to do about it?

                                If it comes to "legalities" can you afford to pursue a prosecution with all its inherent costs of money and time - or do you just not pursue it at all?

                                A costs-versus merit analysis (and a gut feeling - or professional advice) - and risk early in the peace may well cause you to "give it away". Or perhaps you may elect/choose to pursue legal action.

                                It may well be that you might well be licking your wounds and wonder "why this? - why me?" in any case.

                                So far as I am concerned all or any of my work that I might post or have posted here here is "wide open" and fair and square in the Public Domain.

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