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Suitable replacement for a Jig Borer?

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  • J Tiers
    replied
    If you do the drill bushing plate, then you can locate each hole to about the accuracy allowed by your X-Y plus bushing clearance.

    Old idea, came out of a toolmaking book from long ago.

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  • rkepler
    replied
    As others have said a drill doesn't locate all that well - even in a spot drilled hole. The few times I needed holes that were on size and location to a couple of tenths I had to spot, drill, bore undersize and ream to size. The reasons for this are: drills don't locate or size holes well (although they can do both on occasion), boring gives a hole on location (correcting the drill location) and a reamer will give a properly sized hole but will always follow the existing bore (modulo reamer size - a 1" reamer doesn't follow a hole .032" undersize all that well).

    So my answer is to use a tenths reading DRO (not one that guesses at tenths) to locate the holes and the drill, bore, ream to get the hole to size on that location.

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  • smalltime
    replied
    Originally posted by DeanDK View Post
    Hello,

    I'm from Australia, where quality used machines aren't easy to come by, and jig borer's that can fit in my man-cave are even harder to come by.

    I need to drill small holes ط0.5mm - ط2.0mm in brass in very precise locations.

    I had a thought (I have my flame suit on).

    Would say using a Cameron Micro Drill Press (high speed, low runout spindle) with a high precision xy linear slide (Zaber brand) produce good results? The travel distance I would need would be 60mm in either direction.

    Anyone care to provide insight why this would be a half decent/bad idea?
    If you need smallish holes located to close tolerances, it's all in the technique.

    I would spot (with a non-rotating spotter), then peck drill, then finish with a jig bore cutter.

    I use this technique in CPM and D2 often. Our dies run less than .0005 on a side clearance, And we punch holes smaller than these regularly.

    http://www.legacytechnologies.com/index.php

    You may need to "season" the jig bore cutter before you use it in free machining brass. It may want to bite. Try cutting a hole in some tool steel before trying it in your workpiece.

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  • JCHannum
    replied
    According to your needs and the quantity of repeat parts needed, a solution might be the Reglus drill fixture. This is a watchmaker tool for just what you describe. It has fine, precise adjustments and utilizes drill bushings to prevent drill wander. I acquired one several years ago and have not convinced myself to let it go although I have no real world use for it. Cheap, they are not, but they do turn up on eBay on occasion.

    http://www.reglus.ch/430e0154-d589-4...cc15338-9.html

    Leave a comment:


  • Mcgyver
    replied
    Originally posted by DeanDK View Post
    Thank you everyone for your replies.

    I understand that a drill does not bore holes. My error in wording is that the way the watchmaking industry used their jig borer's such as the Hauser M1, Leica, SIP or DIXI more for spotting the correct location of holes, than precise diameters. The Hauser M1 had scales at 0.01mm and a vernier at 0.001mm for x and y.

    It's not every task I chase microns, but when I have two meshing gears with just over 0.1mm tooth widths, error in positioning two holes for correct tooth engagement do matter.

    I don't know if I can post links, but the linear stages I was looking at were these style, I guess these are not ordinary x-y tables. They say unidirectional accuracy 13microns.

    http://www.zaber.com/products/produc...LRQ075AL-DE51C

    JRouche,

    I would also like a nice SIP or Hauser, but I don't have the room for the large ones, and the bench top ones are priced way out of my league and extremely rare.
    You didn't specifically mention quantities, but I gather then its low volume watch work. - quantity is an important factor in making a suggestion. For a larger scale, very precisice work can be done with gauge blocks and tool makers buttons, but that would be a challenge on something small. I like your suggestion of a stage, I've some microscope stages that use micrometer barrels, they'd be good to .01mm...and if you need something more get the large barrel designs from a tool makers microscope that are graduated in tenths. Presumably accuracy on the squareness of x to y is comparable.

    How accurate they will of course be a function of how accurately they we made.....I'd trust brand name stuff but not the low budget stuff.

    So something like a servo drill press and mit stage could make a very nice (not so) poor mans jib borer. You still don't get the "look through the Z" function of a nice jig borer though

    Are you planing on machining the holes in the lathe after locating them? imo you will a very accurate way of doing so, ie tailstock scope, else the accurate spotting efforts will be lost. For that matter, if you do have that capability, you could always layout the holes the traditional way with a depthing tool

    I am kinda a drill press whor, oops, horder . Cameron, Servo, Electro Mechano. Neat lil small drill presses. I have latched onto 2 of each. Jig boring machine they are not.

    I always wanted a small SIP jig boring machine. JR
    I've a Servo, electromecahnical and a dumore. Servo is head and shoulders about the others imo. AN M1 would be nice, but really, the rational part of my brain says most of them just sit rarely used. Unless you really want to make a watch.....or rather actually make a watch. I'm convinced most of the vibrant market for watchmaking tools is fueled by hopes and dreams; fun to collect and play with but few watches end up being made (at least that's my speculation on it)

    A jig borer is of course for very accurate placement and making of holes, including drill, boring and grinding. As as they very accurate x/y movement, you'd expect less spindle runout than a mill or a drill. Very accurate Z movement is another advantage you don't get with a dp or mill. Hopefully some sort of optical means of positioning. I'd like to have one but have seem my own tool collecting demons and realize its mostly just because I don't (have one) .
    Last edited by Mcgyver; 11-25-2016, 09:51 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeanDK
    replied
    Thank you everyone for your replies.

    I understand that a drill does not bore holes. My error in wording is that the way the watchmaking industry used their jig borer's such as the Hauser M1, Leica, SIP or DIXI more for spotting the correct location of holes, than precise diameters. The Hauser M1 had scales at 0.01mm and a vernier at 0.001mm for x and y.

    It's not every task I chase microns, but when I have two meshing gears with just over 0.1mm tooth widths, error in positioning two holes for correct tooth engagement do matter.

    I don't know if I can post links, but the linear stages I was looking at were these style, I guess these are not ordinary x-y tables. They say unidirectional accuracy 13microns.

    http://www.zaber.com/products/produc...LRQ075AL-DE51C

    JRouche,

    I would also like a nice SIP or Hauser, but I don't have the room for the large ones, and the bench top ones are priced way out of my league and extremely rare.
    Last edited by DeanDK; 11-25-2016, 07:35 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • David Powell
    replied
    The tenths on a readout DO matter.

    Originally posted by oldtiffie View Post
    .....




    Quite so TG.

    But as some are in the rarefied atmosphere in that ethereal cloud and who may be those who descend on the cloud that the rest of us do dwell under and amongst us - well, me anyway - I just shake my head and get back to whatever menial lo-tech non-micron task I am using as my scrap-like endeavours - to me anyway.

    It is always better to muse about and discuss microns (ui) at say 0.4 of a "tenth" but whether it is needed or achievable consistently is another matter.

    Same applies to both "Flatness" and "Class of Finish".

    I do never the less admire those who do try and do advance their knowledge and skills and capabilities.
    I am not chasing " Super precision" Hell. all I want are model steam engines ! However, I do have fun making them. This week I am in to making the shafts and fitting the purchased gears ( No I did not purchase them) to a 2" scale traction engine. There are quite a lot of keyways to cut. I have been cutting them on a Busy Bee B048 mill equipped with a Sino Readout. I am using a 3/32 three flute throwaway end mill. I have 2 sizes of 1/8 nominal keystock in the box one dead on ie 0.125" and one oversize at 0.126". IF I mill the keyways at 16.3 thous over per side the 125 stock is a tight fit. IF I mill at 16.5 thous over per side the .125 is a slide fit, but the oversize will not fit , IF I mill at 16.7 the oversize is tight but will tap in. I made the opposing keyways for the gearchange using a 5c square collet block, made a plug for the gears with a slot for my broach and one for a keyway to get 2 keys opposing and got a smooth sliding fit with the oversize keystock. Now I have time to play at my pace I will take more notice of the tenths column than previously,. Many thanks to everyone who gives sensible, simple to understand advice and encouragement to " DO BETTER" David Powell

    Leave a comment:


  • JRouche
    replied
    Originally posted by DeanDK View Post
    Hello,

    Anyone care to provide insight why this would be a half decent/bad idea?
    Kinda funny but I also was lusting over some of those small, very expensive Jig Boring machines. I think SIP and Hauser. They made some small but very accurate machines.

    I went the inexpensiver route, Enco RF-45 mill. Converted to servos, all three axis. And ball screws. My poor mans Jig Boring machine. Dont ask, no where near the stable precision of a Jig Boring machine. Heck, I even looked into a Moore,

    I have a nice lathe, older than the hills and you need an EE to own it, I dont have an EE. I just like old machines.

    The bad side with the drill presses for using as a jig borer? The spindles are ok, its the X-Y table. I think Servo had one with an X-Y base.\ Never will be a Jig Boring machine. Id give my 5k$ CNC, servo, ball screw, brand new Enco-45 milling machine for a nice SIP or Huaser.

    I am kinda a drill press whor, oops, horder . Cameron, Servo, Electro Mechano. Neat lil small drill presses. I have latched onto 2 of each. Jig boring machine they are not.

    I always wanted a small SIP jig boring machine. JR

    Leave a comment:


  • larry_g
    replied
    First thing that came to mind was PC board drills and then some form of a PC board drilling machine. Check them out.

    lg
    no neat sig line

    Leave a comment:


  • oldtiffie
    replied
    .....

    Originally Posted by oldtiffie

    Note that 1 um (micron) = 0.001mm = 0.000039 inches - note that 0.000039"is near enough to 0.00004"= 0.4 "tenth"

    Originally posted by Toolguy View Post
    That is 40 millionths. Less than half a tenth. I doubt if the average HSM would have any problems by missing the mark that much.

    Quite so TG.

    But as some are in the rarefied atmosphere in that ethereal cloud and who may be those who descend on the cloud that the rest of us do dwell under and amongst us - well, me anyway - I just shake my head and get back to whatever menial lo-tech non-micron task I am using as my scrap-like endeavours - to me anyway.

    It is always better to muse about and discuss microns (ui) at say 0.4 of a "tenth" but whether it is needed or achievable consistently is another matter.

    Same applies to both "Flatness" and "Class of Finish".

    I do never the less admire those who do try and do advance their knowledge and skills and capabilities.
    Last edited by oldtiffie; 11-24-2016, 11:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Toolguy
    replied
    Originally posted by oldtiffie View Post
    Note that 1 um (micron) = 0.001mm = 0.000039 inches - note that 0.000039"is near enough to 0.00004"= 0.4 "tenth"
    That is 40 millionths. Less than half a tenth. I doubt if the average HSM would have any problems by missing the mark that much.

    Leave a comment:


  • oldtiffie
    replied
    First of all, there are varying grades of DRO each with its own accuracy - and that means that each and every hole will need to be approached from the same direction (X and Y) else you will or may get "bitten" by the "back-lash" due to the DRO accuracy limitations.

    Check these (very good) "Easson" DRO's which have accuracies of 1um (micron) - for grinders - and 5um (micron) for "other" set-ups (lathes, mills etc).

    Note that 1 um (micron) = 0.001mm = 0.000039 inches - note that 0.000039"is near enough to 0.00004"= 0.4 "tenth"

    Easson scales (DRO) are here.

    https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Di...eadouts-Easson

    Leave a comment:


  • old mart
    replied
    You need stub drills of the minimum length to clear in the workpiece, and lots of speed. At these diameters, boring is not really on. Perhaps solid carbide would work because of the stiffness.

    Leave a comment:


  • garyhlucas
    replied
    Isn't the important word here 'borer'? Drilling is not considered a precision operation. If you need precision you ussually drill then bore. That gives precise location, diameter and roundness. So at the least you'd need a boring head to do it right.

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    So turn it into a jig borer. Put a plate at 90deg to the column, with a hole for bushings. Hardened bushing in the hole that fits the drill, and no issues with wander. Was done a hundred years ago, should still work now.

    You can make and harden the bushings, care taken there pays off with the holes.

    Leave a comment:

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