Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Alternative galaxies - WAS Antikythera mechanism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Keep in mind an incredible amount of human history was lost when the Library of Alexandria was destroyed. We will never know the entire truth. Even in just the field of mathematics the basic logic used in computer programming was elucidated in 300 BC.
    Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Norman Bain View Post
      More likely a HSM member accidently sent back in time without his trusty set of tools. Had to make do with what he had to impress the locals and make a living.

      Norman

      I bet that a small bench lathe, a X2 mini mill, bench grinder, and dividing head all fit quite nicely into a DeLorean.
      www.thecogwheel.net

      Comment


      • #18
        Michael Wright, a former curator of mechanical engineering at the Science Museum, is arguably the authority on the Antikythera. Not only did he build the first, and a very nice one at that, reproduction, he did so with dividers and files - in his home workshop. I suppose he want to prove it could be done with simple tools.
        in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

        Comment


        • #19
          I fully agree that it could have been done by one of the ancient Greeks. But the real question is where is the evidence for anyone doing such things? It is hard to believe such a navigational instrument was just a one off project by an ancient highly skilled home shop machinist. There must have been earlier, less complex models to test the feasibility of such a design, and it must have been designed in some way. I would expect to see at least trace evidence of much simpler models in common use at the time. That is how we always seem to do things like this and humans haven't changed much at all over time.

          That is the real mystery. Why is there just a single high level example?
          Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

          Comment


          • #20
            Why is there just a single high level example?
            Wrong question. You need to ask why is this one the only one which we have found (so far)?

            The answer could be that this one was being sent from A to B by ship when the ship sank, so the mech survived at the bottom of the sea. Survived - as in a highly corroded mass of brass salts. All the other versions, and the maker's tools, were on land and were destroyed by wars and earthquakes and time and barbarians.

            Cheers
            Roger

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rcaffin View Post
              Why is there just a single high level example?
              Wrong question. You need to ask why is this one the only one which we have found (so far)?

              The answer could be that this one was being sent from A to B by ship when the ship sank, so the mech survived at the bottom of the sea. Survived - as in a highly corroded mass of brass salts. All the other versions, and the maker's tools, were on land and were destroyed by wars and earthquakes and time and barbarians.
              Well stated.

              Comment


              • #22
                A quick Google shows a caliper was found in a shipwreck dated about 600 BC. Cranes with winches is around 515 BC. A very interesting escapement mechanism for controlling water flow in a restroom is around 300 BC. Gears in general is around 500 BC. Wooden winches 500 BC. More important is the Astrolabe, 200 BC. Alarm clocks about 300 BC. Odometer by perhaps Archimedes about 300 BC and there are others.

                I would very much expect to see more evidence for something so advanced or at least an earlier, less advanced model. Even just some ancient writing about it or just a few words about its use at sea. It must have had a Greek name for that time.

                It may just be that is really was a one off invention and the inventor was very unknown and/or did not survive much longer. Perhaps it was the very first test run and since it never came back he gave up on the idea.
                Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  A quick Google shows a caliper was found in a shipwreck dated about 600 BC. Cranes with winches is around 515 BC. A very interesting escapement mechanism for controlling water flow in a restroom is around 300 BC. Gears in general is around 500 BC. Wooden winches 500 BC. More important is the Astrolabe, 200 BC. Alarm clocks about 300 BC. Odometer by perhaps Archimedes about 300 BC and there are others.

                  I would very much expect to see more evidence for something so advanced or at least an earlier, less advanced model. Even just some ancient writing about it or just a few words about its use at sea. It must have had a Greek name for that time.

                  It may just be that is really was a one off invention and the inventor was very unknown and/or did not survive much longer. Perhaps it was the very first test run and since it never came back he gave up on the idea.
                  Calipers, cranes, gears, etc. are all items that would have had widespread use. They would have existed in far greater numbers than a specialized instrument of little use to more than a handful of people. Which do you think we would be more likely to find after a couple thousand years?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Evan View Post
                    I fully agree that it could have been done by one of the ancient Greeks. But the real question is where is the evidence for anyone doing such things? It is hard to believe such a navigational instrument was just a one off project by an ancient highly skilled home shop machinist. There must have been earlier, less complex models to test the feasibility of such a design, and it must have been designed in some way. I would expect to see at least trace evidence of much simpler models in common use at the time. That is how we always seem to do things like this and humans haven't changed much at all over time.

                    That is the real mystery. Why is there just a single high level example?
                    Originally posted by rcaffin View Post
                    Why is there just a single high level example?
                    Wrong question. You need to ask why is this one the only one which we have found (so far)?

                    The answer could be that this one was being sent from A to B by ship when the ship sank, so the mech survived at the bottom of the sea. Survived - as in a highly corroded mass of brass salts. All the other versions, and the maker's tools, were on land and were destroyed by wars and earthquakes and time and barbarians.

                    Cheers
                    Roger
                    It can be very difficult to imagine things outside ones own experience.

                    A contemporary example might be to imagine what your South Bend is going to look like when the Clock of the Long Now clock is in the same state of repair as the Antikythera is today.

                    Dave
                    Last edited by becksmachine; 01-29-2017, 02:03 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Calipers, cranes, gears, etc. are all items that would have had widespread use.
                      And so would be the need to navigate at sea. That is of utmost importance to any sailor. It would also provide significant military advantages.
                      Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        That is the real mystery. Why is there just a single high level example?
                        -Easy. It was a trade secret.

                        For whatever reason, the device and the skills to make it, were considered important from either a military or an economic or even just a prestige standpoint. The smith, and presumably an apprentice or two, were very likely kept under guard, possibly as a valued and coddled guest, but probably more likely as a slave or prisoner with benefits.

                        Access to him was restricted, and his mechanisms and techniques closely guarded. I don't recall the details of the vessel the device was found on, or that of it's sinking, but it's possible the smith was being transported on the same boat, and being a manacled slave, perhaps perished in the accident.

                        As the smith's patron or owner had not permitted any writings of his works, lest the documents be copied or stolen, the knowledge of the mechanism died with him.

                        Similarly, the mechanism may have been the product of more than one smith, or even more than one generation of smith. It could have been in the possession of a powerful family, and built, added on to, updated, repaired and modified over a relatively long period of time, and by several talented smiths, which would help explain it's sophistication.

                        But said family, again, saw it as a valuable resource, and guarded it closely- possibly even to the point of capturing/kidnapping or even just contracting various skilled smiths, having them don the necessary work, repair or update, and who were then quietly executed so they could not reveal the secret.

                        After all, the formula for so-called "Greek Fire" was so well kept it was lost shortly after it was invented, and supposedly Emperor Tiberius, when presented with an urn made of flexible glass, had the glassmaker beheaded so the new material would not devalue silver and gold.

                        Doc.
                        Doc's Machine. (Probably not what you expect.)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Another reason you don't find a lot of stuff is that metal was very valuable and likely to be reused once "not in use" by disrepair, function or "acquired" by invader/whatever. Think about the bronze age... how much stuff as a percentage of what existed really survived in original form?

                          Even in the 1600-1700's when a house burnt down the ashes were sifted to find all the nails and iron fittings.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            And so would be the need to navigate at sea. That is of utmost importance to any sailor. It would also provide significant military advantages.
                            The idea that it would be produced in any significant quantity -- especially compared to simple items like calipers and winches -- is laughable, given its limited use and complexity of construction.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              the others were melted down and made into bronze swords

                              someone has to post it...
                              Last edited by AD5MB; 01-29-2017, 04:47 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Doc Nickel View Post
                                -Easy. It was a trade secret. For whatever reason, the device and the skills to make it, were considered important from either a military or an economic or even just a prestige standpoint...mechanisms and techniques closely guarded.
                                I agree. This device was almost certainly a highly prized, very expensive and probably top secret device for use by the King and his court alone. The Antikythera mechanism was used to predict with extreme precision when lunar eclipses would take place - years and years into the future with down to the hour precision. And it would even provide a prediction of the moon's color during the eclipse. All of these details and the ability to predict them was pure magic in the ancient world, which was literally steeped in the Mythological gods who lived in the heavens. Anyone who possessed that knowledge could influence ordinary people's thinking and allegiances by convincing them they were in direct communication with the gods. Or even that they may be gods themselves.

                                The Antikythera mechanism must have been viewed like a Manhattan project of its time to those that commissioned its construction because of its ability to predict incredibly important celestial events long before they happened. This would allow the King to make pronouncements and predictions long before the events took place, validating his wisdom and connection with the gods. So it would make sense that records of its existence cannot be found and that these devices would be scarce even when new and probably destroyed during war or invasion before they fell into the wrong hands.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X