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Alternative galaxies - WAS Antikythera mechanism

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  • #91
    Originally posted by AD5MB View Post
    I have to weigh in on some of this 7th grade behavior here.

    John got into model helicopters. he put 28" three bladed rotors on helicopters that came with 24" two blade rotors. He put 50 percent larger engines in the same bird, stripped off the body, hung a TV camera and a transmitter off it and used it like people use drones now, but 30 years ago.
    I'm intrigued with this as more than a few guys in our flying club fooled around with RC helis in the 1980's and no one can remember a heli with multiple engines or gyrostabilization let alone stabilization remotely good enough for a camera platform. RC copters did not, as a rule, have gyros at all and just getting one of those old gas burners into a stable hover was quite an achievement.
    Likewise, a 1980's era video camera with a nicad pack- never mind a transmitter- would have weighed at least 10 pounds which is one hell of payload for a single rotor heli.
    Got any pictures?

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    • #92
      Slightly OT but how come the Romans or Greeks didn't invent printing? They had appreciation of writing and literature and went to considerable effort to reproduce it in bulk as most of the population including slaves could read. They had signet rings so understood the concept of reproducing multiple impressions from a single master.
      Likewise they had time measuring devices which they appreciated the need for but no clocks.

      Back on topic, I understand a simpler early version of the device was found in Piltdown.
      Last edited by Baz; 02-06-2017, 07:17 PM.

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      • #93
        most of the population including slaves could read.
        ??? Literacy was very low at that time. Perhaps 10% or so could read and that was the upper class. It is why religious services always include either singing or chanting. The brain is much better at remembering lyrics than spoken words.

        I forget which Pope it was but I recall it being around year 300 or so that priests were finally commanded to learn to read as a part of their theological training. And they were part of the upper class by a large margin.

        Also, the concept of printing was known very early but what was missing was the idea of movable type. However, the Chinese had that very long ago. The west had to wait for Gutenberg.
        Last edited by Evan; 02-06-2017, 07:31 PM.
        Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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        • #94
          Never waste your time asking a research tech if he caught the latest can't miss an episode show last night. many of us do not own a television.
          You have that right. I haven't watched television for decades and do not have one.
          Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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          • #95
            There was some discussion earlier about what other types of similar machines may have existed when the Antikythera mechanism was new. Well, apparently they may be on to another similar mechanism at the same wreck site. Which in a way makes sense. If the mechanism was Roman plunder, they very well could have seized more than one and shipped it back on the same load. I read a very interesting excerpt from this website: http://www.economist.com/news/scienc...computer-mk-ii

            "During the 1990s Mr Wright worked out that these corroded metal gears are not, as originally believed, parts of a clock or astrolabe used for navigation, but are, rather, components of a mechanism that embodied the Hellenistic world’s geocentric cosmology, including the epicycles then thought to explain the retrograde motion in the sky of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

            Or, rather, 81 of them are. For one, fragment D (the top right-hand object on the white display board towards the right-hand edge of the picture), does not fit. Moreover, its workmanship seems different from that of the others, and it appears to be made of a different alloy.

            Mr Wright therefore wonders if there was a second mechanism on board, of which fragment D is part. Since, at the moment, the Antikythera mechanism is unique, that is an exciting thought. It cannot be true that such a device is a one-off. The craftsmanship speaks of a significant industry. But what range of products that industry made is unknown.

            In September, the answer may be revealed. The Greek Department of Underwater Antiquities and the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, in Massachusetts, are collaborating to mount the first in a series of new excavations of the wreck using a special diving suit called the Exosuit that enables its wearer to remain on the seabed for hours without having to worry about decompression sickness, better known as the bends.

            Searching for the mechanism Mk-II is not the expedition’s only goal. But if it does find a new cache of cogs, it will shine further light on Greek technology, and serve as a reminder of just how little the modern world really knows of the ancient one."


            This article was written in 2014. They had an expedition in the summer of 2016, but to my knowledge have not found any more gearing yet. Also, I know there has been some inner conflict between Wright and some other researchers (including the mathematician Tony Freeth shown in the BBC documentary) over some gearing details. Not sure if it may have been over the fragment mentioned above.

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            • #96
              Well, that all seems to fit my own thoughts on this very well. I do hope they find more evidence. That would indirectly answer some serious questions. Even just a few (more) parts would be enough.

              It is amazing what was known in the distant past. It is proven that the Chinese knew how to do black chrome plating well over a thousand years ago. That was rediscovered by Germany just one hundred years ago.
              Last edited by Evan; 02-07-2017, 12:27 PM.
              Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
                Yet with a laypersons knowledge its dismissed with a phhht, just another bunch of gears. Seems like a lot hubris.....for the layperson to so quickly dismiss it
                No not at all.

                I think it most interesting that we are so stunned by this machine. The underlying attitude that they were too dumb to figure this out back then. A sort of arrogance about our present state of affairs. I guess it is hard for some to make that mental adjustment. This machine glaringly proves all that we didn't know about them. "Opps I guess they were smart too." It is impressive, not only for what it does but how it exposes our lack of understanding about their abilities.

                Given we accept their ability to build such a device then the following;

                As for this machines impact on civilization. Meh. (not thumbs up or down) The machines used to build this machine I could get excited about. Tides would be important for obvious reasons.

                The awareness, observations, record keeping, math skills, spatial cognitive abilities it took with a total understanding to create such a machine must have been vast. Without these it would be like putting a steering wheel on a horses ass.

                But this looks so much like a government pork barrel project to me. A fancy machine that tells you when events will happen that have little or no value to the working day for the average guy. So I see no great societal value, no great progress in the condition of mankind. Skills could have been acquired in building but I suspect they were already there. So what is the true impact of this machine? I suspect it took a lot of hard earned tax money to pay for this project with little or nothing returned. The cost/benefit is horrible in my opinion. The kings expensive machine, a waste of taxpayer money.

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                • #98
                  how it exposes our lack of understanding about their abilities.
                  It isn't a lack of understanding, it IS a lack of knowledge. The destruction of the Library of Alexandria was one of the largest losses of knowledge to hit mankind.

                  What very much scares me is that we are headed in that direction again, as we "speak". We are now at a very high risk of losing an incredible amount of recorded knowledge yet again. How much of our knowledge is recorded on something durable? Virtually everything is now recorded with mechanisms that have very poor durability or in many cases virtually no durability to speak of. And, even if the recording system(s) is relatively durable it is a technology that is unlikely to be supported in the future.

                  How many of you have a working eight track player? Reel to reel tape deck? Vinyl record player? And so on. The Russians nearly lost all the data from the Venus landers which was recorded on magnetic tape and NASA has had similar problems. It will soon become much worse. We do NOT have the necessary technology to somehow back up the incredible amount we have learned in recent decades, just about medicine for instance.

                  I sometimes wonder what will happen to the roughly 30 gig of photographs I have taken? I can put them on some sort of spinning disk but that is quickly going out of "style". Also, those disks will not last like a carved rock or a piece of papyrus. Or even just a piece of acid free paper. I really wonder where we are headed.

                  This all then makes me think of the true threat to all civilization, the very high risk of an EMP attack by a nation such as North Korea. They have that capability already. One little bomb launched to about 300 miles altitude would take out all of Japan permanently. Most people would starve in just a few months. Just half a dozen bombs lifted that high around the Earth would take most of us out and those left would be living in the stone age.
                  Last edited by Evan; 02-07-2017, 12:14 PM.
                  Free software for calculating bolt circles and similar: Click Here

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Abner View Post
                    No not at all.

                    I think it most interesting that we are so stunned by this machine. .
                    We? I'm not stunned by it.

                    What is your knowledge of mechanical antiquities? The hubris is the dismal of the people with expertise who find its discovery so interesting. What do you know that they don't?
                    Last edited by Mcgyver; 02-07-2017, 04:51 PM.
                    in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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                    • Got any pictures?
                      No, I don't have pictures of another guys project from 30 plus years ago. Why would I?

                      The point of that post is: Some people function on a higher plane. Things that are beyond the imagination of Joe Average Public are a Tuesday after work project for others. Things other people can not conceive of are doing productive work in another guys garage.

                      I have a former coworker who has a 24 core math server grinding away in a back room. The microprocessor cost more than my truck. I can't conceive of any use for such a thing, but he has friends who borrow time on it.

                      The fact that you can not conceive of a thing does not make the thing less true. One mans ceiling is another mans floor.

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                      • Originally posted by AD5MB View Post
                        The fact that you can not conceive of a thing does not make the thing less true.
                        Wandering a bit OT, but heck after 100 posts anything goes.....and it is in the spirit of the the great Greek thinkers

                        I recently read a post on another forum where someone clearly ignorant of economics, to paraphrase, claimed "I can't understand it so those bloody economist must be wrong". A serious WTF moment should occur to all thinkers. The subject does not matter. What does is that this is a flourishing trend, probably accelerated by social media and instant communication. A sort of "my opinion matters on everything, listen to me, you are just waiting to hear what I have to say" culture shift. An age of hubris people think the world is waiting to know what they had for dinner.

                        The problem comes when people project their self perceived guru-ness into all manner of subjects they no business do in. Look at an area where you have deep expertise and note the ignorants' comments on it (ignorance of course means a lack of knowledge not stupidity). Its the root cause of this growing "I can't perceive it so it mustn't be true" or more pointedly "what I perceive it to be must be so because I said so" vs. trying learn and understand.

                        Its disturbing as it holds power holds consider powers as manipulation tool when its played to.

                        Anyway, its real thing out there these days. We are lost if eveyone's opinion on everything has to be equal.
                        Last edited by Mcgyver; 02-07-2017, 01:33 PM.
                        in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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                        • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          ...We are now at a very high risk of losing an incredible amount of recorded knowledge yet again. How much of our knowledge is recorded on something durable? Virtually everything is now recorded with mechanisms that have very poor durability or in many cases virtually no durability to speak of. And, even if the recording system(s) is relatively durable it is a technology that is unlikely to be supported in the future...
                          This gives me some small measure of smug satisfaction that some of my images, words and ideas will survive me by perhaps a hundred years or so, possibly much longer. Some 50 or so articles I have written have been rendered to clay-coated paper and disbursed around the (English speaking) world in the form of Digital Machinist, Home Shop Machinist and Machinist's Workshop magazines, and The Electromechanical Arts of Weston Bye books. I am grateful that Village Press is a printing company and not just a web presence. Unless human perception or language changes radically, the printed word will remain understandable without the need for supporting technology.

                          "Verba volent, scripta manent" (Words fly away, writing remains) Too bad there are no pithy Latin words for" Data Evaporates."
                          Weston Bye - Author, The Mechatronist column, Digital Machinist magazine
                          ~Practitioner of the Electromechanical Arts~

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                          • Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
                            I recently read a post on another forum where someone clearly ignorant of economics, to paraphrased, claimed "I can't understand it so those bloody economist must be wrong".
                            Possibly a bad example since the only guy who saw the crash coming was pilloried by every "Professional" economist he presented his ideas to and most schools of economics have not modified their curriculum since ;-)
                            If you benefit from the Dunning-Kruger Effect you may not even know it ;-)

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                            • I share Evans concerns. Not only do we not have any form of lasting memory to pass knowledge down the line, people today are more focused on electronic devices for pleasure and convenience. Take those out suddenly and there would probably be chaos. The huge lumbering juggernaut which is the economy is heavily dependent on electronic devices to keep rolling smoothly. The millions of people who work to help keep our society functioning wouldn't know what to do without them. I once watched a checkout girl fail to figure out how much change to give from a dollar when the bill was 85 cents.

                              We do have a wide range in our skill sets, and I suspect that's always been true, and probably always will be. I'm not surprised that someone (or a team probably) was able to come up with this mechanism we're talking about. I am amazed by it, but I don't think it's divine intervention in any way that hasn't always been active in the evolution of mankind. I'm a fairly smart feller in my own right, but I can't paint- nor am I any good at lots of other things. People who can paint can't necessarily do mechanical work. There were probably extremely talented individuals back in the cave man days- likely they would have been too busy staying alive to have time to show this much, but I think it was always there.

                              If and when our apocalypse comes, some of us will survive- but it's very likely that our current state of the art will be lost. Just like what probably happened so long ago, leaving little to show except the odd exhumation of some 'fantastic' relic.
                              I seldom do anything within the scope of logical reason and calculated cost/benefit, etc- I'm following my passion-

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                              • Originally posted by AD5MB View Post
                                No, I don't have pictures of another guys project from 30 plus years ago. Why would I?
                                You made a rather extraordinary claim about someone building a way-beyond-the-state-of-the-art RC helicopter. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

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