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Daimler at the Rose Garden

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  • Daimler at the Rose Garden

    I took this photo in 1974, at the Wellington Rose Garden. There were not many cars on New Zealand roads as nice as this.

    I must have been preoccupied at the time, because in all the years I have had this photo I have always thought it was a Jaguar. But now I think it could be a Daimler Sovereign. Can anybody confirm this?

    Last edited by aostling; 02-22-2017, 08:54 PM.
    Allan Ostling

    Phoenix, Arizona

  • #2
    It is a Daimler for sure, maybe a Sovereign or a Double-Six.

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    • #3
      The fluting on the top of the radiator shell gives it away as a Daimler.

      Jim

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      • #4
        looks so much like a Jag because they basically were....according the wiki. Built by Jaguar based on existing bodies and badged Daimler. Perhaps the start of that wasteful horrible automotive thing of rebranding or a facelift - a new dash and a grill (instead of investing in better engineering and fewer models)(personal issue I have with that lol)
        in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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        • #5
          " There were not many cars on New Zealand roads as nice as this."

          My neighbour in Wellington in '74 had an E49 Valiant Charger ...just better. (My opinion, of course )

          And, as it turns out, much more collectable.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
            looks so much like a Jag because they basically were....according the wiki. Built by Jaguar based on existing bodies and badged Daimler. Perhaps the start of that wasteful horrible automotive thing of rebranding or a facelift - a new dash and a grill (instead of investing in better engineering and fewer models)(personal issue I have with that lol)
            It is TOTALLY less wasteful. Having the same car rebadged for a different brand takes way less resources to do vs making a new model just for the other brand. And it makes for a vehicle that is cheaper to produce (because of higher volume, price/part goes down).

            Making an all-new model every year vs a facelift would make vehicles crazy expensive. And parts as well would be way more expensive, and that would also make keeping older vehicles on the road way harder. And vehicles would also wind up being less reliable (as tweaks from year to year along with the facelift fix problems found when they roll out a "new" model).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Scotty H View Post
              " There were not many cars on New Zealand roads as nice as this."

              My neighbour in Wellington in '74 had an E49 Valiant Charger ...just better. (My opinion, of course )
              I lived in Thorndon, at 20 Hobson Street. What neighborhood of Wellington did you live in 1974?
              Allan Ostling

              Phoenix, Arizona

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dave_r View Post
                It is TOTALLY less wasteful. Having the same car rebadged for a different brand takes way less resources to do vs making a new model just for the other brand. And it makes for a vehicle that is cheaper to produce (because of higher volume, price/part goes down).

                Making an all-new model every year vs a facelift would make vehicles crazy expensive. And parts as well would be way more expensive, and that would also make keeping older vehicles on the road way harder. And vehicles would also wind up being less reliable (as tweaks from year to year along with the facelift fix problems found when they roll out a "new" model).
                You are correct, the face lift is less cost than a new model, that should be obvious. The point though is whether anyone is better off with a face lift or yet a another re-badged model, identical to the one it was cloned from, rather than investing in engineering, automation, quality and so forth. I didn't adequately give enough of overview to make the point. The numbers below are from the CEO of a Tier 1 stamper who was a long term client and are from about 15 years ago. Interestingly, its a billion dollar business, and he started with a mill in his garage (contrary to the erroneous and ignorant sentiment CEO's are terrible useless people)

                At the time, he claimed the big three would typically spend $750,000,000 on a model facelift every 2.5 to three years. GM was over 30 models at the time and did this to "freshen" each one up. that 750MM did nothing to make the car better, it was just what they thought the consumer wanted, a new look. (Personally I find that insulting that they view their market as that unintelligent, but that's not so relevant to this).

                At the same time they had 27 engines. Each one, from the germ of an idea to engines rolling out of a plant cost over $1 billion.

                Then consider the European model. 6 or 7 car models that would be in production for 7 or 8 or more years and maybe 1/2 a dozen engines. So, what sort of cars would GM be making today if they had an extra $50,000,000,000 (saving from consolidating to a reasonable number of models and engines and ran them for eight years without face lifts) to spend every eight years on engineering, R&D, quality, advanced production techniques etc. They'd be turning out a car the quality and the performance of a BMW 550 for $27,000.

                That won't work you say, the stupid public needs 27 engines, 35 overlapping models a facelift every 2.5 years.....the tale of the ticker tape says different. Here's the big three's US market share vs international companies (most German and Japanese).

                And that's why $$$ on face lifts for a proliferation of models is wasteful - its wasting dollars that could be spent on better engineering and better cars. Their business model that worked 50 years ago but big organizations resist change and is why ultimately, new big organizations are created.

                Last edited by Mcgyver; 02-24-2017, 09:12 AM.
                in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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                • #9
                  The ironic thing is that facelift or no, essentially every car looks like every other car now. There is really no difference in appearance until, you look closely. Luxury cars look like cheaper cars, the differences, such as they are, exist only under the sheet metal, which may be creased slightly differently between brands and models. There are a small number of styles (most of them either uninteresting, or actually ugly), within which there are cars from cheap to expensive. But even the styles are really not very different.

                  SUVs also fall into a few styles. Again, they vary from uninteresting to ugly.
                  CNC machines only go through the motions

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                  • #10
                    Luxury cars look like cheaper cars, the differences, such as they are, exist only under the sheet metal, which may be creased slightly differently between brands and models.
                    This was one of he bits as well....that for any given car there wasn't that much more metal, plastic, rubber and glass in the high end car.....its the engineering, design and manufacturing that makes the difference between say a Chev and Mercedes. It wasn't for a lack of talent, its just too diluted across too many brands and focused on the wrong things.

                    end of day, doesn't matter much to my life, but I always remembered it as an interesting observation by a smart industry insider...needless to say its a observation that nips at the hand that feeds so I don't think it political bias. It made a lot of sense I thought....why the 'face lift' was wasteful and squandered resources.

                    Then you get into how every year the suppliers had to make the parts cheaper not better......I remember a new GM once (wife's) that was I thought expensive and parts literally rained down on your head while driving, as interior crap fell off. Anyway, we're into mismanagement of the auto industry, a big subject.
                    in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by aostling View Post
                      I lived in Thorndon, at 20 Hobson Street. What neighborhood of Wellington did you live in 1974?
                      Eastbourne, Muritai Road then Pt Howard.
                      Last edited by Scotty H; 02-26-2017, 02:30 AM.

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                      • #12
                        The point of buying a luxury car is, in part, to be seen to have a luxury car.... at least it is for many.

                        When you need to look closely at logos to see the difference between a decent mid range vehicle and a vehicle costing 50 grand more, that takes away much of many folks reasons for buying luxury cars. They will still do it, for any number of reasons (maybe even because they like the car) but the cars no longer shout "I made it, buddy, and I'm here to show it".

                        I tend to drive cars that cost much less than I could easily afford, simply because I do not care, and have no particular interest in what folks think about me from looking at the car I drive. I drive what I like. I'm not in sales. I have nothing to prove. A neighbor is, and he finally got rid of his limited edition custom version of a BMW, because it was more "exclusive" than the cars of the CEOs he took to lunch.... which made trouble for him when doing deals. Apparently even for sales folks, there are limits.

                        The car he has now, is still a nice BMW, but a standard version,
                        Last edited by J Tiers; 02-26-2017, 02:59 AM.
                        CNC machines only go through the motions

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Scotty H View Post
                          Eastbourne, Muritai Road then Pt Howard.
                          Here's looking at your house, perhaps, from Days Bay in 1972.

                          Allan Ostling

                          Phoenix, Arizona

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                            The point of buying a luxury car is, in part, to be seen to have a luxury car.... at least it is for many.
                            ,
                            i hope I don't have to spend much time with those types, that's very different than my sense of it.

                            I'm not in sales.
                            Really?

                            j/j

                            We're all in sales, or should be....don't limit the subject of sales to flogging some product or service. Anyway, i worked in a domain, for a long time, where it was important the image you projected, only because in that discipline everyone want to deal with top guys and top guys made a lot of money (100% commission environment). However for the most part, an expensive car is not compatible with sales, sends the wrong message. I grind the welding gas guy every time I see him - I point out his new his truck compared to our old trucks, and claim we're paying too much. Its simplistic yes, but an easy way position for a lower price discussion.

                            I was involved with one company that was making obscene margins....all off us we instructed to make sure there were no nice cars in the parking lot when a customer came to visit. Some guys kept a beater in the driveway for that.
                            Last edited by Mcgyver; 02-26-2017, 10:07 AM.
                            in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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                            • #15
                              OK, I'm not in THAT kind of sales.....

                              Salesfolks need to drive a "nice" car, but not an "ostentatious" car. It seems that nobody wants to deal with a salesman who is so unsuccessful that they have to drive a beater. An extremely nice car may be perceived as you say, evidence of making way too much money.

                              the neighbor drove a vehicle that was apparently one of 50 made....(Dinan) and that eventually was too much, so he got an ordinary nicer BMW to replace it. As compensation, he also bought a more sporty model to go with his new Bimmer.

                              I prefer more interesting vehicles. There's a '59 Jaguar I want, but the owner isn't selling.
                              CNC machines only go through the motions

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