Carbide selection help

[MattiJ]

This is a metric insert on Bang Good CCMT09t304-pm. Ok I get what most of it means but what does the -PM on the end mean. I looked it up on Carbide Depot and it doesn't have any explanation. Bang Good has several similar inserts but with these different letter on the end???

Can they be ignored???

P.S. for those guys that shop on Bang Good do the prices for inserts mean for 10 inserts for the quoted price or for individual insert but in packages of 10 which is how other places tend to sell them.

-pm is manufacturer specific designation and can specify coating, carbide type, chip breaker or "anything".

With these chinese inserts you hardly know the manufacturer but some of the designations they have copied from "real manufacturers"
VP15TF =similar to Mitsubishi VP15TF coating, especially for stainless but works also on normal steel
-AK = sharp insert for aluminium or finishing cut on gummy steel
H01 = same as above
PR, PM, PF, RF, RM, RF = Roughing, Medium cutting or Finishing

I wouldn't worry too much about fine details since chinks seem to send you something similarly shaped in general, not always even the same insert as in the pictures. But for me the mystery chinese inserts have been worth of the price (yes the BQ price is per 10pcs box, not per piece!)

[garyhlucas]

Hi,

I ignore the -pm myself. Perhaps it has something to do with coating? All 7 boxes I have ordered of various types were priced per box of 10. Dirt cheap and good enough for HSM. I've been impressed with the DCMT and ER11 threading inserts.

Sad when carbide inserts are cheaper than grinding HSS.

Dalee

Actually the manufacturing method used to make inserts has far less waste than that used to make HSS. Think also of the material you ground off to get the shape, and with carbide they press powder into a mold for the exact shape including the chip breakers on top. Also they are recycling carbide now. Not sure what the recycled material gets used for. I'd guess it may be used for the garbage carbide inserts or maybe for less demanding applications. The feet on the bottom of snowplows for instance.

[MattiJ]

Actually the manufacturing method used to make inserts has far less waste than that used to make HSS. Think also of the material you ground off to get the shape, and with carbide they press powder into a mold for the exact shape including the chip breakers on top. Also they are recycling carbide now. Not sure what the recycled material gets used for. I'd guess it may be used for the garbage carbide inserts or maybe for less demanding applications. The feet on the bottom of snowplows for instance.

Germans figured it out already 80 years ago that it was more efficient to use the rare tungsten supply in carbide tooling instead of using it for making HSS.

AFAIK recycled carbide is used to make new insert just as good as "virgin" material. Most tooling manufacturers e.g. Sandvik offer to buy your carbide scrap if you have enough big volumes.

[lakeside53]

Pressing isnserts is easy. Coatings.... far more complex.

[loose nut]

***Germans figured it out already 80 years ago that it was more efficient to use the rare tungsten supply in carbide tooling instead of using it for making HSS.***

They also figured out it was to rare for them to shoot out of AT guns to kill Russian tanks instead of using it to make tooling.

[enginuity]

Pressing isnserts is easy. Coatings.... far more complex.

Agreed. And it is the coatings that really make carbide work so well.

Until fine grain carbide and coatings were developed carbide was a niche cutting tool material.

[MattiJ]

Agreed. And it is the coatings that really make carbide work so well.

Until fine grain carbide and coatings were developed carbide was a niche cutting tool material.

Niche? Maybe with home shop harry's but on the industry it has been mainstream for "forever" (since WW2?)

[enginuity]

Niche? Maybe with home shop harry's but on the industry it has been mainstream for "forever" (since WW2?)

Carbide insert tooling as we know it started becoming popular in the 1970s - about the same time as CNC was starting to become popular.

Before the 1970s (being really general here) carbide was a specialty cutting tool similar to CBN is today. All those stories you hear from people saying carbide can't take interrupted cut? They were completely true and accurate. That was before the carbide revolution when fine grain carbide wasn't available nor were any of the coatings.

Of course today fine grain coated carbide insert tooling is everywhere because it works well, and it is a "Gillette razor" type product. It's essentially a subscription based product. Wear it out and throw it away - or recycle it and buy it back from your supplier.

[loose nut]

OK last question before I push the button,

As far as I can tell by going through the info at Carbide Depot CCGT09T302 and CCMT09T304 should both fit the same holder, the difference is the tolerance and the tip radius but everything else, like the dimensions should be the same.

Did I get that right?????? I am probably getting the SCLSR1616H09 holder which is suppose to take these inserts. Fingers crossed because reading the descriptions on the Bang Good site, in the usual Chinglish is painful.

[danlb]

I don't find an SCLSR tool holder. The SC tells us it will use a CCMT. 16 probably means the shaft is 1 inch square, The rest don't fit the ANSI chart.

The inserts are 3/8 inch IC. so as long as your tool holder takes a CCMT32.51 you are golden..


Dan

[MattiJ]

OK last question before I push the button,

As far as I can tell by going through the info at Carbide Depot CCGT09T302 and CCMT09T304 should both fit the same holder, the difference is the tolerance and the tip radius but everything else, like the dimensions should be the same.

Did I get that right?????? I am probably getting the SCLSR1616H09 holder which is suppose to take these inserts. Fingers crossed because reading the descriptions on the Bang Good site, in the usual Chinglish is painful.

Yup, both ccgt09 and dcgt09 fit the same holder.
And ...H09 on insert holder designation tells that its for 9(mm) size insert.
SCLSR is probably your typo of SCLCR?

[loose nut]

TYPO, yes my bad.

[dalee100]

I don't find an SCLSR tool holder. The SC tells us it will use a CCMT. 16 probably means the shaft is 1 inch square, The rest don't fit the ANSI chart.

The inserts are 3/8 inch IC. so as long as your tool holder takes a CCMT32.51 you are golden..


Dan

Hi

The 16 refers to the shank size of the tool - 16mm. I use the smaller 10-10, (10mm). Simply because I think it fits my post and holders better.

Dalee

[loose nut]

Thanks guys. I'm looking at the 16MM holders instead of the 12 MM ones, they may be a bit stiffer, maybe not enough to matter??? It's for a 13 x 40 lathe, BXA tool post, 16 MM should just fit.

[MattiJ]

Thanks guys. I'm looking at the 16MM holders instead of the 12 MM ones, they may be a bit stiffer, maybe not enough to matter??? It's for a 13 x 40 lathe, BXA tool post, 16 MM should just fit.

Most probably doesn't matter with sharp finishing inserts but why not. The extra cost is minimal.
I have taken 1/2" off diameter(so 1/4" cut) on a 4130 with bit more robust ccmt09 inserts on a 12mm shank without apparent ill effects.