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  • Not Like Mom's Old Washer

    Just for the heck of it I decided to tear down our old washing machine to
    see what might be salvageable. For parts.

    Not much really. There is a little tiny servo for the detergent dispenser.
    Doesn't look to have an encoder so there must be a position sensor. I might
    tear into it someday, but I don't have much use for a servo with power in
    the milliwatts.

    There are a couple modestly heavy springs that the basket and tub assembly
    hung from. Those I'll save for sure. Four shock absorbers tied to the
    bottom of the tub. Those I'll probably save for a while, but probably not
    forever. Lots of hoses. Lots of heavy spring wire hose clamps.

    A stainless steel laundry basket with out a dynamic balancing ring, so maybe
    a short term burning basket that I don't have to depressurize first. Looks
    like they counted on the shock absorbers and the springs to take up for out
    of balance loads. Well that, and there are several heavy cast concrete
    (resin-crete of some kind maybe) blocks that act as inertial dampers.

    I can probably save the drain pump if I determine what voltage it takes.
    Not sure what use I would have for it though. It’s a pretty application
    specific shaped pump.

    The main motor though got my attention. Looks like 3 wires going into an
    open frame motor. Lots of other stuff. Some sort of sensor on the back
    shaft, etc. Only two wires so not an encoder. When I looked at the motor
    to see if it was labeled I noted something that really got my attention.

    It says 195V 310hz 17500 RPM.

    Isn't about 195V volts about what a 110 to 220 VFD/inverter puts out?
    Did I just find a high speed 3 phase spindle motor for a future project?

    Oh, yeah, there was two quarters behind the drain pump trash collection
    basket.
    *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

  • #2
    Interesting motor, it would have to be 3 phase, so the washer has an inverter in there somewhere. What brand and model washer? Almost all the commercial machines are inverter drives now. Beautifully simple, motor, belt, drum, done.

    Comment


    • #3
      I have identified what is likely the inverter. Has the right number of wires anyway. Its labeled made in Germany, so it might be a third party assembley I can get specs on.
      *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

      Comment


      • #4
        Most of those washers, if they are front load, don't need to balance the load in any mechanical way. They depend on distributing the load around. Watch one sometime as it tries a distribution, then checks the shaking. It will try again if it does not like the result.

        You might look around for any vibration sensor on the tub assy. Might not have one, the motor current can be used to check unbalance also. Some sophisticated firmware to look at the current signature checks for balance.

        The inverter and motor might be good. We have a "Duet" washer, that spins 1200 rpm. The motor must go a fair bit faster, since there is a largish step-down ratio in speed between the motor and the drum. Mus be fairly powerful, since it deals with a load of wet clothes pretty well as it sloshes them CW and then CCW, through the water at the bottom.

        Also might be nearly useless unless connected to the washer control board, depending on where the current sensor info goes, and how it is processed. You may have to suss out the control wires, method of control, and how the speed is set. I've never looked into ours.
        1601

        Keep eye on ball.
        Hashim Khan

        Comment


        • #5
          You can configure a regular VFD for that motor. Just go to the motor settings and inform the drive of the 195v 310Hz and it will take care of the rest. Most drives can handle 400Hz.
          On my lathe I have a 230v 3phase motor running on a 400V vfd with the right configuration. I run it to 120Hz all the time. Thar way I don't have to keep changing the speeds on the belt. I keep it in the 2؛ speed and do the rest with the drive.
          Helder Ferreira
          Setْbal, Portugal

          Comment


          • #6
            My wife's new washer, an LG, has that high speed spin out.
            I took me months to get comfortable to the sound of it running.
            Keep waiting for the day it goes crazy and blows a hole through the side of the house.
            The rotor/stator are popular with the home energy crowd. Turned the tub shaft for a guy so he could use some special low friction bearings. The high frequency 3 Ph didn't output didn't seem to bother him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Yep. I have a little 110V to 220V Hitachi 1hp VFD running a 24K spindle on one of my CNC Mills. I figured I'd use one of those on this motor if I can't figure out how to use the drive that's in the washer.

              The drive that's in the washer has 5 wires out to the motor. 3 to the motor and 2 to a sensor on the back shaft. Probably a speed feedback of some kind. It has sets of wires coming in as follows. 2, 2, and 3. The 2 and 2 are probably AC in and speed signal in. (Maybe 0-10VDC?) The 3 are probably forward and reverse relays. I intend to look it up and see if its a part that's available from the mfg. If so specs and configuration of the unit may be available. If not, well there is always throwing a little Hitachi or Delta VFD on it.

              A motor is a motor.
              *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

              Comment


              • #8
                There's several videos on YT about those motors and how to control them. Apparently, they can "run-away" and self-destruct if not controlled correctly. Also, it might help to identify where you are. That motor seems to be used outside of the US but you have a 110-220 VFD. ???

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have two similar motors from my 23 year old Asko washing machines. They drive a 12 inch pulley on the back of the 16 inch drum via a j-section poly-v belt. Drum speed from about 60rpm to 1600 rpm with the driving pulley just under an inch. No speed feed-back. 17,500 rpm 200v. Based on size I'd guess about 1/3 hp. One day I'll use them
                  Last edited by lakeside53; 08-28-2017, 12:12 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm in the US, but it doesn't really matter. I have 110V ands 220V wired all over my shop. I've got three mills that are 220V and one that is 110V, but has a 220V spindle since I couldn't find a replacement that was 110V and had the right diameter to fit in the head. Hence the 110V to 220V VFD setup. I swapped out both the spindle and the drive when the spindle went bad. By doing it that way I can still move that machine from the shop to the garage and run it if I want to.
                    *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lakeside53 View Post
                      I have two similar motors from my 23 year old Asko washing machines. They drive a 12 inch pulley on the back of the 16 inch drum via a j-section poly-v belt. Drum speed from about 60rpm to 1600 rpm with the driving pulley just under an inch. No speed feed-back. 17,500 rpm 200v. Based on size I'd guess about 1/3 hp. One day I'll use them
                      On the one I have there are two wires going to a device on the back shaft of the motor. Seems like a tach to me. It doesn't have enough wires to be an encoder.

                      Originally posted by CCWKen View Post
                      There's several videos on YT about those motors and how to control them. Apparently, they can "run-away" and self-destruct if not controlled correctly. Also, it might help to identify where you are. That motor seems to be used outside of the US but you have a 110-220 VFD. ???
                      How can they run away? Its not a universal brush motor that might if it has no load. Its a 2 pole 3 phase AC induction motor that will run about 60RPM per cycle per minute less slippage. The math just from the data sticker backs that up. Comes up to about 56RPM per cycle. Other similar application motors I've seen online are labeled 17500 at 300hz, so it seems that efficiency varies a little. They may not run well on low frequency which could damage the motor, but I have not see that. (except many motors have no way to cool at low rpms) The key with other motors seems to be to have the base frequency set correctly in the VFD regardless of the actual frequency you run the motor at. I don't really understand that part, but I found that to be the case when setting up a 24K spindle recently. When I set the base frequency at 400 it ran fine from about 1200rpm (not much torque) to 24K rpm. An optical tach verified actual RPM at various frequencies output.
                      *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I find this topic very confusing!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ac motors have a linear voltage /frequency caracteristic when designed. A regular 50hz 230v motor will only work correctly with it's contant torque with this relation.Eg. 25hz 115v, 100hz 460v. The "horsepower" output is also proportional as long as the relatition is maintained. Since it's difficult to have all this different supply voltages, they design the motor to take advantage of this. If you connet the 300hz 195v motor to 60hz 195v it will be completely out of the designed voltage/frequency relation of the motor and will be destroyed. A vfd on the other hand if correctly parameterized will handle the job with no problems.
                          Helder Ferreira
                          Setْbal, Portugal

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bob La Londe View Post
                            On the one I have there are two wires going to a device on the back shaft of the motor. Seems like a tach to me. It doesn't have enough wires to be an encoder.



                            How can they run away? Its not a universal brush motor that might if it has no load. Its a 2 pole 3 phase AC induction motor that will run about 60RPM per cycle per minute less slippage. The math just from the data sticker backs that up. Comes up to about 56RPM per cycle. Other similar application motors I've seen online are labeled 17500 at 300hz, so it seems that efficiency varies a little. They may not run well on low frequency which could damage the motor, but I have not see that. (except many motors have no way to cool at low rpms) The key with other motors seems to be to have the base frequency set correctly in the VFD regardless of the actual frequency you run the motor at. I don't really understand that part, but I found that to be the case when setting up a 24K spindle recently. When I set the base frequency at 400 it ran fine from about 1200rpm (not much torque) to 24K rpm. An optical tach verified actual RPM at various frequencies output.
                            The two wires are likely a tach as you suspect.

                            It's not the only thing they could be, but it is likely, given that the washer has many speeds that it runs at during the cycle.

                            it can run away if the tach signal fails in a way that indicates under-speed, since it will be stuck in a mode of trying to increase speed to match the command, but it does not sense the speed correctly and continues to increase. There will be some limit on that, so it will not "run away" that far, but it may end up at max, and not be controllable.

                            The commanded speed should be matched by the tach feedback. so if the tach is reading low, the control continues to increase until the tach output matches the command (if it ever does).
                            1601

                            Keep eye on ball.
                            Hashim Khan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Most modern washing machines use the Fischer-Paykel motor, it is a direct drive to the tub and is a 3 phase out-runner principle. http://www.directdrivemotors.com/
                              The wind generator crowd have found them useful.'
                              I am trying to get my hands on one for experimental purposes.!'
                              The Universal motors used had a 8 pulse tach feedback to a Motorola IC that is specifically designed for washer use, one manuf. used them for Treadmill use, I picked one of these up for a Bandsaw controller.
                              Max.
                              Last edited by MaxHeadRoom; 08-28-2017, 08:09 PM.

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