Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Gages?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    J, Tiers thank you. I understand what you are saying.
    My question relates to why we have to look up AWG size when they could just put down the dia. in inches because that would realy tell me what I want to know - how thick is this wire?
    I realize that professional people can work with gage sizes because an electrician knows what gage he will need for a certain job. Unless you are into guns you would not have the slightest idea what a 12 gage means. You would however understand a 30 cal bullet or a 50 cal..
    If they can call for a 1.5mm sheet metal why not for a .062" sheet metal. Why specify a "Gage".
    Tradition seems to be a big factor here. The problem as always shows up when you are trying to export. I can just see someone in Africa trying to figure out why there is a difference between the thickness of steel and Aluminium or copper all having the same "Gage" number. Seems to me some of our companies in the business of standardizing should get together
    and simplify this mess. May be we could crank up our export.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Juergenwt View Post
      J, Tiers thank you. I understand what you are saying.
      My question relates to why we have to look up AWG size when they could just put down the dia. in inches because that would realy tell me what I want to know - how thick is this wire?

      snip - - -
      If they can call for a 1.5mm sheet metal why not for a .062" sheet metal. Why specify a "Gage".
      One of the few things that is good about using a Gage is that it cuts down on the minutia that you have to remember. For instance, it's marginally easier to remember that you want #10 wire for a 30 amp circuit instead of having to specify a diameter of 0.1019 inches. Heaven help you if you get it wrong and your supplier special orders a thousand feet of 0.1029 inch wire.


      Of course, you don't have to remember the exact sizes, just remember the formula, where d = diameter and n = gage;


      But that's a hassle, so just use these rules of thumb (from Wiki);
      The sixth power of the 39th root of 92 is very close to 2 which leads to the following rules of thumb:

      When the cross-sectional area of a wire is doubled, the AWG will decrease by 3. (E.g. two No. 14 AWG wires have about the same cross-sectional area as a single No. 11 AWG wire.) This doubles the ampacity.
      When the diameter of a wire is doubled, the AWG will decrease by 6. (E.g. No. 2 AWG is about twice the diameter of No. 8 AWG.) This quadruples the cross-sectional area and the ampacity.
      A decrease of ten gauge numbers, for example from No. 12 to No. 2, multiplies the area and weight by approximately 10, and reduces the electrical resistance (and increases the conductance) by a factor of approximately 10.
      For the same cross section, aluminum wire has a conductivity of approximately 61% of copper, so an aluminum wire has nearly the same resistance as a copper wire 2 AWG sizes smaller, which has 62.9% of the area.
      Yeah. I prefer to just order #10

      Dan
      Last edited by danlb; 10-27-2017, 06:20 PM.
      At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

      Location: SF East Bay.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by danlb View Post
        One of the few things that is good about using a Gage is that it cuts down on the minutia that you have to remember. For instance, it's marginally easier to remember that you want #10 wire for a 30 amp circuit instead of having to specify a diameter of 0.1019 inches. Heaven help you if you get it wrong and your supplier special orders a thousand feet of 0.1029 inch wire.
        .....
        That's the point, really. With the gage number, you get the nominal size, AND the specification of the tolerance, with a single short descriptor.

        If you specify an actual decimal size, then you are also responsible for specifying a tolerance. And, as mentioned, any accidental deviation from the "standard" will mean the vendor will quote a "special", with tooling costs, and so forth. While you can straighten that out, it is far simpler to give the gage number and get all that taken care of with no further effort. EVERY supplier knows exactly what a 10 ga wire is.

        Then also, with sheet metal, you get into extra problems with size and tolerance if it is, for instance, galvanized. That is typically the same steel, with a coating added, and is then a different nominal thickness and tolerance. You either call for the 18ga galvanized, or specify everything, steel thickness and tolerance, plus coating thickness and tolerance.

        Most any supplier who is international will have everything set up in SI for their international customers, so the catalogs have the materials listed as is customary for the markets they sell into.
        Last edited by J Tiers; 10-27-2017, 07:56 PM.
        CNC machines only go through the motions

        Comment


        • #34
          Question: Are we the only country taking advantage of what using "Gages" has to offer? Are England, Australia, Russia, China, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France, Russia, Japan and others
          also using their own Gages? If they are that would create quite a mess, I think. Just think of all the steel we are buying from other countries. Could be we are just ordering by decimal - whether inch or mm and let them convert it to their own "Gages"?
          Last edited by Juergenwt; 10-27-2017, 09:03 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Juergenwt View Post
            Question: Are we the only country taking advantage of what using "Gages" has to offer? Are England, Australia, Russia, China, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France, Russia, Japan and others
            also using their own Gages? That would
            Probably. But it is different from that. I believe the spec for wire is such in the EU, for instance, that if a certain mm size wire is called out, that implies a standard in much the same way that gages do. If you ask for 1.5mm wire (arbitrary example size) you get wire to the spec for that nominal size, because being electrical wire, it has a given known set of specs.

            Nobody thinks you want a special wire unless you actually add a different spec, or call for a size not normally used.
            CNC machines only go through the motions

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Juergenwt View Post
              Question: Are we the only country taking advantage of what using "Gages" has to offer? Are England, Australia, Russia, China, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, France, Russia, Japan and others
              also using their own Gages? That would
              They are using their own equivalents. For instance IEC 60228 is the International Electrotechnical Commission's international standard on conductors of insulated cables. At a glance, that standard provides for 30 standard wire sizes.

              The smallest size appears to be 0.5 sq mm. Hmmmm. That does not tell me what size hole to drill in a circuit board either.

              Dan
              At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

              Location: SF East Bay.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                That's the point, really. With the gage number, you get the nominal size, AND the specification of the tolerance, with a single short descriptor.

                SNIP.
                Another thing to know about buying by gage #, there is a tolerance limit and the material you get will most likely be a the very bottom of the limit. Wire is sold by the foot and the vendor can sell more feet if the wire is at the lower limit allowable. Learened about this working in a steel warehouse in 1974. Steel bought by the pound but was ordered/sold by the sheet, or foot if barstock/structural. We used gages to check sheetstock, and the gages were always loose on the sheets.
                North Central Arkansas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Juergenwt,
                  the simple reason there are so many gages is that in the days before standardization of dimensions many manufacturers had their own definitions of gages. Some have survived. It is a confusing mess.

                  I read somewhere that the gage number for steel wire was the number of times it was drawn through a die. Don't know if it is true.

                  Simplest way to specify material size is by the actual nominal dimension. Then you don't have to worry about using the right gage definition.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ulav8r View Post
                    Another thing to know about buying by gage #, there is a tolerance limit and the material you get will most likely be a the very bottom of the limit. ....
                    That's actually no problem.

                    If the gauge is OK for your application, , that means you can accept anything in the range allowed by the gauge number (or it does if you have done your design job). So if it is at the light end, you are still OK.

                    Now, I agree that I also do not like "one sided distributions", such as are/were often supplied by asian sources. They tend to suggest that the material was centered at the limit, or even out of spec, and an attempt was made to "inspect-in the quality".

                    In the case of the wire and sheet material, that is probably not the case. The mill has controlled the material to be within spec, but on the light side.
                    CNC machines only go through the motions

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by danlb View Post
                      They are using their own equivalents. For instance IEC 60228 is the International Electrotechnical Commission's international standard on conductors of insulated cables. At a glance, that standard provides for 30 standard wire sizes.

                      The smallest size appears to be 0.5 sq mm. Hmmmm. That does not tell me what size hole to drill in a circuit board either.

                      Dan
                      Difference is that from 0.5 mm2 you can quite easily calculate the wire diameter without being math savant or having 500 pages of conversion tables.

                      Or fl oz. to cubic inches, how many remembers the conversion factor? Or even knows right hand that witch one is bigger?
                      30 gauge or 1/8 drill? is 32 AWG wire going to fit trough hole drilled with 30 gauge drill?
                      Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MattiJ View Post
                        Difference is that from 0.5 mm2 you can quite easily calculate the wire diameter without being math savant or having 500 pages of conversion tables.
                        Yep. Let's see... the diameter of a wire with a cross section of .05 sq mm. That would be the (square root of (.05 / Pi ) ) * 2. yeah. I'm going to do that without a calculator or google. Right.
                        At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                        Location: SF East Bay.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                          That's actually no problem.

                          If the gauge is OK for your application, ,
                          Ha,, Yeah, I have to agree with this one. I am a Tech. It seems like most of you are Engineers. I know, too many socks. JR

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by danlb View Post
                            Yep. Let's see... the diameter of a wire with a cross section of .05 sq mm. That would be the (square root of (.05 / Pi ) ) * 2. yeah. I'm going to do that without a calculator or google. Right.
                            No, the math savant part was if you actually remember the formulas or conversion factors for the 40 different gages
                            Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              The definition of the mile as 5280 feet, I believe, was established by Queen Elizabeth I to make the mile an even number of furlongs. Prior to that it was a mille passus, a thousand paces which is how the Romans defined their mile.

                              Then there is the Gunter's chain of 66 ft., consisting of 100 links. There were 80 chains to the mile. 10 square chains comprised one acre.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ulav8r View Post
                                Another thing to know about buying by gage #, there is a tolerance limit and the material you get will most likely be a the very bottom of the limit.
                                According to Wikipedia, the tolerance is necessary because the rollers used to size sheet metal will bow slightly in the middle, causing the edges of the sheets to be a little thinner.



                                Originally posted by MattiJ View Post
                                Cool. Would be interesting brain-twister if we had another half of population using base-12 for everything.
                                It has quite potential but the base-12 measurement units in base-10 math is just crazy
                                There are a good number of people around the world, including me and some others here, I'm sure, who are very comfortable working in base 16.

                                Ed
                                For just a little more, you can do it yourself!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X