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  • #31
    LOL.....

    I probably should have added, right after the "perhaps more", the following: "Well after the time most would expect parts to be easy to find, so that parts availability is not an issue and unit lifetime is reasonable".

    That would have segued well into the next part, without so much flavor of "Mr Obviousman"......
    4357 2773 5150 9120 9135 8645 1007 1190 2133 9120 5942

    Keep eye on ball.
    Hashim Khan

    Everything not impossible is compulsory

    "There's no pleasing these serpents"......Lewis Carroll

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    • #32
      Well, got word back from the repair shop.
      Biggest positive is I'm not a idiot - it doesn't work.
      Biggest negative - there are zero parts available and cannot be repaired.

      So I'm out $45.00 for the testing - like taking a dead dog to the vet for verification.
      Repair guy even said many non industrial users are switching and buy the no name ones and run them into the ground and then buy another. I loathe the situation I find myself in.

      JT - Hf does sell the consumables - fairly cheap.

      FWIW- The thermal Dynamics machine I have was made in the USA.
      Last edited by Abner; 12-05-2017, 11:59 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Abner View Post
        Well, got word back from the repair shop.
        Biggest positive is I'm not a idiot - it doesn't work.
        Biggest negative - there are zero parts available and cannot be repaired.

        So I'm out $45.00 for the testing - like taking a dead dog to the vet for verification.
        Repair guy even said many non industrial users are switching and buy the no name ones and run them into the ground and then buy another. I loathe the situation I find myself in.

        JT - Hf does sell the consumables - fairly cheap.

        FWIW- The thermal Dynamics machine I have was made in the USA.
        Wow, did they detail what part was bad or not even look? Considering they charged you for testing I would expect they would isolate the cause of it not working. What if it was just a broken wire inside for example? If they didn't give you more detail as to WHY it does not work, I would complain loudly and ask for a refund.

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        • #34
          If they isolated the problem, you may have other options available. One such is George's plasmacutter shop http://www.georgesplasmacuttershop.com/ in Delaware. While that may be too far to ship the machine, he may be able to provide a replacement part. George is active on Welderweb.com as mechanic416.

          Dan
          At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

          Location: SF East Bay.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sparky_NY View Post
            Wow, did they detail what part was bad or not even look? Considering they charged you for testing I would expect they would isolate the cause of it not working. What if it was just a broken wire inside for example? If they didn't give you more detail as to WHY it does not work, I would complain loudly and ask for a refund.
            Isolated it down to 1 of 2 boards, neither of which is available. Charged me 1/2 the inspection fee of $90.

            I open it up before I took it in. Nothing obvious like loose wires, which is why I took it in. I'm not a computer board expert, it's going in the scrap bin.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by danlb View Post
              If they isolated the problem, you may have other options available. One such is George's plasmacutter shop http://www.georgesplasmacuttershop.com/ in Delaware. While that may be too far to ship the machine, he may be able to provide a replacement part. George is active on Welderweb.com as mechanic416.

              Dan
              I will take a look. Thanks,

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Abner View Post
                Well, got word back from the repair shop.
                Biggest positive is I'm not a idiot - it doesn't work.
                Biggest negative - there are zero parts available and cannot be repaired.

                So I'm out $45.00 for the testing - like taking a dead dog to the vet for verification.
                Repair guy even said many non industrial users are switching and buy the no name ones and run them into the ground and then buy another. I loathe the situation I find myself in.

                JT - Hf does sell the consumables - fairly cheap.

                FWIW- The thermal Dynamics machine I have was made in the USA.
                I had that happen to me with a steam cleaner that I took in to be repaired. It was a Karcher not some off brand. After a week I called to check the status and they told me they couldn't fix it as there are no parts available for that model. I told them ok I will come and pick it up. Showed up to pick it up and they hand me a bill for 78 Euros for diagnosing the problem. I asked if any parts are available for the unit. He answered no. So I told him to make the bill out for 10 Euros to pay for the time it would take to contact the factory and ask if parts were available. He said no way. I told him to get the owner of the store. He came out and I read him the riot act. (I know you all can't believe I would do that right!). I told him is a liar and a thief and I would not pay anything now. He said then I don't get the unit back. I told him he had exactly 2 minutes to get the unit loaded into my trailer. If not I will make it my mission in life to destroy his business. As I stood there I Googled Karchers offices for the corporate offices and dialed the head office on my cell. While I was on hold they loaded the unit in my trailer. I then told the owner that I was going to run an add in the local newspaper asking if anyone else has had this problem with his business. The man turned white. My wife was with me and she knew I was going to go ballistic on the man. She even told him that he really didn't want to make me mad!
                Location: The Black Forest in Germany

                How to become a millionaire: Start out with 10 million and take up machining as a hobby!

                Comment


                • #38
                  I found the discussion on inverters versus transformer based welders interesting. I bought a new Miller 250 TIG runner (transformer based) nearly 10 years ago, never had an issue with it at all. Some of the young pups extol the virtues of inverter units, saying that transformer units should have gone bye-bye at the same time shapers were scrapped after being replaced by vertical mills.

                  I've probably welded miles with my TIG. I use the pulse on occasion, but many of the other bells & whistles have not seen use at all. But if and when the need arises, I've got the manual and plenty of Interweb assistance to take a shot at using them.

                  Gosh, I hope it last me another 10 years. By then I'll probably be ready for the rest home.

                  Dan L
                  Salem, Oregon

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Black Forest View Post
                    I had that happen to me with a steam cleaner that I took in to be repaired. It was a Karcher not some off brand. After a week I called to check the status and they told me they couldn't fix it as there are no parts available for that model. I told them ok I will come and pick it up. Showed up to pick it up and they hand me a bill for 78 Euros for diagnosing the problem. I asked if any parts are available for the unit. He answered no. So I told him to make the bill out for 10 Euros to pay for the time it would take to contact the factory and ask if parts were available. He said no way. I told him to get the owner of the store. He came out and I read him the riot act. (I know you all can't believe I would do that right!). I told him is a liar and a thief and I would not pay anything now. He said then I don't get the unit back. I told him he had exactly 2 minutes to get the unit loaded into my trailer. If not I will make it my mission in life to destroy his business. As I stood there I Googled Karchers offices for the corporate offices and dialed the head office on my cell. While I was on hold they loaded the unit in my trailer. I then told the owner that I was going to run an add in the local newspaper asking if anyone else has had this problem with his business. The man turned white. My wife was with me and she knew I was going to go ballistic on the man. She even told him that he really didn't want to make me mad!
                    A long time ago I worked in hifi repair shop while in school. We had guys act like that from time to time.... Folks who did not want to pay for our time to take the unit apart, find out what was wrong, and determine that the part was not available. Folks who thought that they were entitled to serf labor for free, most of them.... they bought the unit, and they apparently thought that they bought our time when they bought the unit.

                    We told them that our billing rate was posted right up on the wall in front of their face, that our minimum diagnostic fee was up there also, so they knew that when they brought the unit in. They could pay the bill and get the unit back along with the information of what was wrong, or not pay and leave the unit. If left 60 days, we could dispose of the unit.

                    Told them they were welcome to call the police, the manufacturer, whatever they wanted to do. A couple did call the police, and were told by the responding officer not to waste his time. They usually threatened to call everyone and have our business license pulled, or whatever, but nobody ever did.

                    Nobody got their unit back with no payment, unless we had decided to handle it that way before the guy ever came in (there were a few).

                    That's life in retail......
                    Last edited by J Tiers; 12-05-2017, 01:12 PM.
                    4357 2773 5150 9120 9135 8645 1007 1190 2133 9120 5942

                    Keep eye on ball.
                    Hashim Khan

                    Everything not impossible is compulsory

                    "There's no pleasing these serpents"......Lewis Carroll

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Slightly OT, but there does seem to be some skullduggery going on when a shop accepts a machine for "diagnostics" if they know that spare parts are not available. Often the tech knows what the problem is likely to be just from the description of the symptoms. Heck The guys on this forum diagnose things all the time without ever seeing the broken device.

                      I don't mind paying a diagnostic fee IF the diagnostic comes with a guarantee that it has isolated the problem. I've never found a repairman who would diagnose it, then refund all money paid if the fix does not work.

                      Dan
                      At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                      Location: SF East Bay.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I don't have an issue with paying to have them look at it, the dead dog vet thing is my bad sense of humor. They were upfront, were not sure if it could be fixed, and only charged 1/2. They have to pay their employee's, bill's, etc. I also didn't buy the machine from them. They offered me a $290 manufactures credit on a new machine.
                        Found a home for my dead plasma cutter with someone who is a retired computer person, sounded excited actually.
                        So HF is about @<1/2 of a new Thermal Dymanics all discounts applied.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                          A long time ago I worked in hifi repair shop while in school. We had guys act like that from time to time.... Folks who did not want to pay for our time to take the unit apart, find out what was wrong, and determine that the part was not available. Folks who thought that they were entitled to serf labor for free, most of them.... they bought the unit, and they apparently thought that they bought our time when they bought the unit.

                          We told them that our billing rate was posted right up on the wall in front of their face, that our minimum diagnostic fee was up there also, so they knew that when they brought the unit in. They could pay the bill and get the unit back along with the information of what was wrong, or not pay and leave the unit. If left 60 days, we could dispose of the unit.

                          Told them they were welcome to call the police, the manufacturer, whatever they wanted to do. A couple did call the police, and were told by the responding officer not to waste his time. They usually threatened to call everyone and have our business license pulled, or whatever, but nobody ever did.

                          Nobody got their unit back with no payment, unless we had decided to handle it that way before the guy ever came in (there were a few).

                          That's life in retail......
                          They knew before I even brought the machine in that there were no parts available for the unit. They should have told me that over the phone as well as stating that they could look at it and maybe it would be something like a bad connection or are broken wire and possibly they could fix it but if it needed any parts then it was a no go. Then the risk would fall on me to decide. They are the professionals not me. It was their attitude as well that pissed me off. I am a very generous person and have helped many people but if you try to screw me I will go to all lengths to extract justice.
                          Location: The Black Forest in Germany

                          How to become a millionaire: Start out with 10 million and take up machining as a hobby!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Black Forest View Post
                            They knew before I even brought the machine in that there were no parts available for the unit. They should have told me that over the phone as well as stating that they could look at it and maybe it would be something like a bad connection or are broken wire and possibly they could fix it but if it needed any parts then it was a no go. Then the risk would fall on me to decide. They are the professionals not me. It was their attitude as well that pissed me off. I am a very generous person and have helped many people but if you try to screw me I will go to all lengths to extract justice.
                            Yes they should have done that if you called them, or at least when you brought it in. But that does not alwys happen. Sometimes the person who takes in the things at the counter does not know much (why they work the counter instead of fixing things).

                            But the person who worked on it presumably should have known that, if it was a common issue and common brand, and if so should have called you to say so before doing anything. Back then we would do that, and make sure everyone knew it was a risk.

                            But if it was not known, then you can hardly blame the repair folks... If they call for parts and to their surprise are told there are none, they are in the same boat with you. Half cost for diagnosis would be fair (at least to people who do not instantly explode ).
                            Last edited by J Tiers; 12-05-2017, 03:40 PM.
                            4357 2773 5150 9120 9135 8645 1007 1190 2133 9120 5942

                            Keep eye on ball.
                            Hashim Khan

                            Everything not impossible is compulsory

                            "There's no pleasing these serpents"......Lewis Carroll

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                              Yes they should have done that if you called them, or at least when you brought it in. But that does not alwys happen. Sometimes the person who takes in the things at the counter does not know much (why they work the counter instead of fixing things).

                              But the person who worked on it presumably should have known that, if it was a common issue and common brand, and if so should have called you to say so before doing anything. Back then we would do that, and make sure everyone knew it was a risk.

                              But if it was not known, then you can hardly blame the repair folks... If they call for parts and to their surprise are told there are none, they are in the same boat with you. Half cost for diagnosis would be fair (at least to people who do not instantly explode ).
                              The store/repair center was a Karcher store. The unit was a Karcher unit and before I went off on them I asked them if they knew there were no parts available before they started on the machine. They answered in the affirmative. And for your information I don't instantly explode. It takes at least five seconds!
                              Location: The Black Forest in Germany

                              How to become a millionaire: Start out with 10 million and take up machining as a hobby!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
                                Possibly, to both. Or, you may be lucky.

                                If the unit is basically well designed, then it may last 20 years. Perhaps more. Semiconductors last a long time if they are used within their limits. Eventually the failure rate goes up, due to physical changes in the parts over time. Usually power semiconductors fail, because the high voltages cause gradual changes in the actual structure of the parts.

                                if, on the other hand, there is an inherent weakness in the device, then the spares for parts which fail may rapidly be depleted, leading to unrepairability. This tends to occur more with units made in china, because the sellers (who did not MAKE the thing) have to guess how many spares to order with the production order. They cannot get just a few made if they need more to service a problem, the chinese will not accept that sort of order, you must order a "production" type run of many thousands. Gettig a few made here is not an option, because only the chinese have the production data.

                                In some cases, such as HF, the company may not order ANY spares, and when anything fails, your options are to replace the unit, fix the bad part, or somehow make your own replacement part. Someone commented recently that HF did not even sell actual consumables for certain products, common things you were CERTAIN to need.

                                Back when things were made here in the US, the manufacturer would have parts as long as they were making the units, and would have spares, know what they needed, were able to produce new parts to fix any problems, etc. That does not occur with stuff made in china, even if it is designed here.

                                Of course US makers were not perfect. One well known brand of clothes washers made a high priced new model, which had some fault with a particular electronic assembly that made them fail in some units. They decided not to fix the problem, but to simply replace the boards if they failed. But, after replacing the assembly a couple times, they would announce to the customer that they would not replace it again for free, despite the warranty. Nice.....

                                And, the product manufacturers are at the mercy of the semiconductor suppliers. Electronic parts are only made for a certain time, and then are replaced by new and better parts, which rarely can be directly used in place of the old. So when that happens, the product manufacturer must either spend money to redesign an old product, or obsolete it and replace with a more modern product using newer parts. They will always do the new product, of course.

                                And, since no more PC boards for the old units are being made, they get in short supply, at high prices.
                                I purchased a HF plasma cutter and then started to get educated about the pros and cons of the machine. HF does sell consumables but you can go to http://www.georgesplasmacuttershop.com/ and get all you need to your door. As others have said, what if it quits? Well http://www.georgesplasmacuttershop.com/ can fix it for you. I know because I needed his service. He was a tech for HF and knows about all kinds of machines. Look at his web site and if you need you can call him for great info and help. I hope this helps!!

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